5 ms·

This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is ou

by deelowe 11y ago

This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is our situation unique? Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.

thirdtruck 11y ago
You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been burned too often to open up yet again.
- Frondo 11y ago
  This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff." And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on. You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show. Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all. Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon? Oh yes.
  - jazzyk 11y ago
    Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences; e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.
      - Gigablah 11y ago
        What's there to be smug about? People will naturally confide in individuals who don't challenge their stories. It's basic empathy.
      - jazzyk 11y ago
        I was not re-interpreting the A.R. story - the facts were what they were. EVERY STORY about harassment (or threats or otherwise troubling behavior) should be reported/heard, but putting the two stories we are talking about in the same basket is not fair - Jessie's case is in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY - it is personal and threatening - unlike the other one.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude) I love how you extrapolate this as a general maxim. But ultimately, I find the parallels to junior high school to be thoroughly unconvincing. Yes, schools can be hellholes, but for completely different reasons than the one you imply, as has been written in detail by the likes of Ivan Illich, John Holt and John Taylor Gatto.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  > You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." One need only look here, where many of the responses could be retitled "Talking points from gamergate" or "redpill leakage".
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
kidsthesedays 11y ago
Speaking as a woman here - >Are scenarios like this really common? Very common. >have not heard of them dealing with such harassment Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Opening up about harassment opens you up to more problems than it solves sometimes. You get labeled as a trouble maker or people don't believe you or say you made it up or whatever.
JesperRavn 11y ago
I asked my only female coworker about this, and she said she had never experienced sexual harassment, and found tech culture tame compared with finance, where people would shout at programmers over the phone if things went wrong. Just one data point.
- prawn 11y ago
  Someone shouting and being rude is a little different to gory Photoshopped photos.
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    true, but that didn't happen to my colleague. I'm just pointing out that one data point for people who are suggesting "ask your female colleagues".
    - prawn 11y ago
      Ugh - yes, ignore my comment. I misread your intent completely. FWIW, I know someone who takes a very public stand online with a few feminist issues and she cops brutal reactions on the net. I think many people simply cannot contain their natural reaction to beat down someone (especially a woman) who they perceive as being successful, or not deserving success by some metric (beauty, body, etc) unrelated to the point.
- zallen 11y ago
  You do realize that finance is one of the worst places for representation of women and is recognized as a cesspit? (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women....). It's wonderful that your friend has had positive experiences throughout her career.
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    She never said finance was sexist, only that people were rude in general. I'm not making any claims myself, only relating the experience of a colleague.
antod 11y ago
I think it's a different thing for women who are publicly visible and eg talk at conferences, or have popular blogs or have some level of leadership etc. The women coders, designers and testers I've worked with and known well personally have never mentioned experiencing any online abuse either. But they have all been private nine to fivers* who don't have any visibility or online presence beyond their immediate family, friends and colleagues. It would probably be a completely different story if any of them felt like sticking their heads up above the parapet and identifiably participating in online tech 'culture'. Especially if they dared to state an opinion on anything. I think there's a difference in exposure between being a tech worker and being a public geek/hacker etc. Colleagues or bosses are more accountable for their actions than semi anonymous bullies on the net. * No disrespect intended by that label at all (for men or women). Just that they weren't geeky hobbyists and didn't indulge in tech stuff outside work. In fact I kinda envy that these days, but I still can't let it go.

by deelowe 11y ago

thirdtruck 11y ago

You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been burned too often to open up yet again.

Frondo 11y ago
This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff." And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on. You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show. Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all. Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon? Oh yes.
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences; e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.
    - Gigablah 11y ago
      What's there to be smug about? People will naturally confide in individuals who don't challenge their stories. It's basic empathy.
    - jazzyk 11y ago
      I was not re-interpreting the A.R. story - the facts were what they were. EVERY STORY about harassment (or threats or otherwise troubling behavior) should be reported/heard, but putting the two stories we are talking about in the same basket is not fair - Jessie's case is in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY - it is personal and threatening - unlike the other one.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude) I love how you extrapolate this as a general maxim. But ultimately, I find the parallels to junior high school to be thoroughly unconvincing. Yes, schools can be hellholes, but for completely different reasons than the one you imply, as has been written in detail by the likes of Ivan Illich, John Holt and John Taylor Gatto.
rodgerd 11y ago
> You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." One need only look here, where many of the responses could be retitled "Talking points from gamergate" or "redpill leakage".

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

kidsthesedays 11y ago

Speaking as a woman here - >Are scenarios like this really common? Very common. >have not heard of them dealing with such harassment Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Opening up about harassment opens you up to more problems than it solves sometimes. You get labeled as a trouble maker or people don't believe you or say you made it up or whatever.

JesperRavn 11y ago

I asked my only female coworker about this, and she said she had never experienced sexual harassment, and found tech culture tame compared with finance, where people would shout at programmers over the phone if things went wrong. Just one data point.

prawn 11y ago
Someone shouting and being rude is a little different to gory Photoshopped photos.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  true, but that didn't happen to my colleague. I'm just pointing out that one data point for people who are suggesting "ask your female colleagues".
  - prawn 11y ago
    Ugh - yes, ignore my comment. I misread your intent completely. FWIW, I know someone who takes a very public stand online with a few feminist issues and she cops brutal reactions on the net. I think many people simply cannot contain their natural reaction to beat down someone (especially a woman) who they perceive as being successful, or not deserving success by some metric (beauty, body, etc) unrelated to the point.
zallen 11y ago
You do realize that finance is one of the worst places for representation of women and is recognized as a cesspit? (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women....). It's wonderful that your friend has had positive experiences throughout her career.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  She never said finance was sexist, only that people were rude in general. I'm not making any claims myself, only relating the experience of a colleague.

antod 11y ago

I think it's a different thing for women who are publicly visible and eg talk at conferences, or have popular blogs or have some level of leadership etc. The women coders, designers and testers I've worked with and known well personally have never mentioned experiencing any online abuse either. But they have all been private nine to fivers* who don't have any visibility or online presence beyond their immediate family, friends and colleagues. It would probably be a completely different story if any of them felt like sticking their heads up above the parapet and identifiably participating in online tech 'culture'. Especially if they dared to state an opinion on anything. I think there's a difference in exposure between being a tech worker and being a public geek/hacker etc. Colleagues or bosses are more accountable for their actions than semi anonymous bullies on the net. * No disrespect intended by that label at all (for men or women). Just that they weren't geeky hobbyists and didn't indulge in tech stuff outside work. In fact I kinda envy that these days, but I still can't let it go.