9 ms·

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised b

by HSO 11y ago

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721. "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and "my banks" once I have paid the tax and don't own the bank! The theory of complex systems reminds us that aggregates can have properties that are not traceable to any individuals themselves. Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. Please, be civilized and don't let yourselves be infected by nationalistic passions. Your moralizing nanny... (No seriously, I am starting to get concerned.)

serve_yay 11y ago
Try using that line of thought when you're talking to a customs agent, let us know how it works out.
i_s 11y ago
> The theory of complex systems reminds us that aggregates can have properties that are not traceable to any individuals themselves. Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. I'm interested in those ideas. Can you give a link to any information about them?
- chadaustin 11y ago
  Some of my personal favorite resources on this topic: http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498 http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-... http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide/dp/0961825170 http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide/dp/0... http://www.amazon.com/Ackoffs-Best-Classic-Writings-Management/dp/0471316342 http://www.amazon.com/Ackoffs-Best-Classic-Writings-Manageme... I really enjoyed these books, but I am not super well-read in this area, so there may be better ones out there. You could try searching for "systems theory" and see what other resources are out there. Systems theory is a very broad topic, so you'll find it attached to many specific disciplines, but the general idea is that you can take a bunch of simple things, hook them together, and produce a "being" that has totally weird behavior in aggregate.
- cb18 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
- ajmurmann 11y ago
  Awesome book by Nobel price winning Thomas Schelling: Micromotive and Macrobheavior http://www.amazon.com/Micromotives-Macrobehavior-Thomas-C-Schelling/dp/0393329461 http://www.amazon.com/Micromotives-Macrobehavior-Thomas-C-Sc...
- aaimnr 11y ago
  This one seems to stand out: http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557/ http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/...
return0 11y ago
You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe.
- cb18 11y ago
  You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe. As it should, with so many countries being invaded[0] by raping and pillaging hordes[1]. (I don't know what "an aging Europe" has to do with it, it's the older generation that has failed us, leaving it to us to avert disaster.) [0] http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-italy/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-... http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0617/Seeking-Refuge-How-the-migration-crisis-is-shaking-Europe-at-its-core-video http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0617/Seeking-Refu... "The jihadist forces, in solidarity with Daesh, have taken control of part of Libya, obviously seeking to organize a massive immigration toward Europe. In their minds, it is an invasion" http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-islamic-invasion-of-europe.html http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-islamic-invasion... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+invasion+2015 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+invasion+2015 "Refugees" in fact consist solely of military aged men http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-uncategorised/immigration/220-what-the-media-won-t-say-about-the-african-invasion http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-uncategorised/immigration... [1] "As one police officer said to me, 'There isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited.' We should start from the assumption that children are being sexually exploited right the way across the country." http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-grooming http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-groomin... "Jay's initial report published on 26 August 2014 revealed that the number of children sexually exploited in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 was, by "conservative estimate", at least 1,400." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#Alexis_Jay_inquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang "Or the spike in rapes that now puts Sweden at #2 in the world. Or the #1 spot in the world for school arsons." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-sweden/ http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-g... http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/ http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-officia... "Last night was yet another flare-up in infamous Stockholm ghetto Tensta. A crowd of 50-something masked thugs were hurling rocks and molotov cocktails at police and fire fighters. But noone was killed and police only had to fire warning shots in the air, so no big deal. Ho-hum, in the “new normal” of Sweden." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/23/riots-are-caused-by-police-doing-their-jobs/ http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/23/riots-are-caused-by-polic... http://en.europenews.dk/Sweden-Tops-Europe-for-Number-of-Rapes-Muslim-Rape-Jihad-78413.html http://en.europenews.dk/Sweden-Tops-Europe-for-Number-of-Rap... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+rape+jihad https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+rape+jihad
vacri 11y ago
> Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. You don't need game theory of this, you just need history. Game theory is the hammer that thinks every problem is a nail.
- fwn 11y ago
  Just that history, other than logic, won't help people to solve problems. At the end of the day, every historic fact ruthlessly stretched into some assumed future is a risk for the people relying on unjustified assumptions.
luso_brazilian 11y ago
OK, I'll try to shed some light on why this subject tends to inflame some of the europeans nationalistic sentiment with a concrete example: 1. Meet Portugal (my country). Some may know us derisively as the P in PIGS because of our financial problems (much similar to the Greek one in nature and extent). In 2010 and 2011 as one of the 14 member states of the EU that were part of the Greek loan facility Portugal contributed with 1102 million euros into the 52.9 billion loan that greece received [1]. Yes, that's correct, not all of the debt that people are so eager to expect that German forgives is from their coffers, it was actually pooled from the following countries: Belgium, Cyprus, Germany, Estonia, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia and Spain. 2. As you may know, about the same time we had our own problems and also had to be bailed out. As part of the measures put in place to reduce our deficit a massive tax hike was implemented in the end of 2012 [2] I'll draw attention to single one of those measures: the 3.5% extraordinary tax on the income paid by every single person with income above minimum wage (485€/month) including pensioners. Now, for the money quote [3]: "Minister of Finance Vitor Gaspar said the tax would bring in 1025 million euros". Less than what Portugal contributed to the Greek bailout fund. 3.5% of the income of every citizen in this country. In conclusion, that's one of the reasons for the nationalistic outrage against Greece defaulting the loan. It is not only the money of the richest bankers of Europe that won't be repaid, it is the taxpayer money of each of those countries that contributed to their rescue. To put in perspective, 1102 million euros means that default would cost every inhabitant in this country 110 euros (about 330€ per household) and not only hypothetically but in practice too as demonstrated above. EDIT: Changed second link as it was paywalled for the same news, but on CNN [1] http://www.rekenkamer.nl/english/Publications/Topics/EU_governance_to_combat_the_economic_and_financial_crisis/Financial_stability_instruments/Financial_instruments/Greek_loan_facility http://www.rekenkamer.nl/english/Publications/Topics/EU_gove... [2] http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/31/business/portugal-fiscal-tax-increase/ http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/31/business/portugal-fiscal-t... [3] http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/other/governments-first-bill-taxes-christmas-allowance http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/article...
- shoo 11y ago
  Thank you for clearly explaining where some of the money came from, and pointing out this subtlety. It is perhaps interesting to compare Portugal's contribution to Germany's after crudely normalising by GDP: * Portugal contributed about 0.48% of its GDP in loans, compared to Germany's contribution of around 0.41%. * Portugal's GDP / capita is a bit less than than half of that of Germany
wyager 11y ago
When people say their government's money is "their money", they are not being literal; they mean "I contributed to that government's money supply, so I nominally have some say in how it is spent/symbolic partial ownership".
agumonkey 11y ago
For what it's worth I thought the interview was moralizing too. I find it too much on the blame side, even though it's an attempt at being honest, but it's hard to consider post-war state and economic crisis. Also bringing back war isn't the best way to avoid nationalism. Bringing a little more egoless theory in the picture is a nice idea.
tsotha 11y ago
A little nationalism is healthy for a country, though I grant too much is a problem.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Nationalism is healthy when it centers on positives about the country. Being proud of good things made or achieved by people from your country is fine, for example, especially as a call to action for achieving further good. It is unhealthy when it centers on negatives about other countries. Being proud that you're so much better than those lazy freeloaders across the border is not so great, for example.
  - saiya-jin 11y ago
    I tend to disagree. With nationalism/patriotism, you cannot avoid highlighting positivies of the past and skipping darker parts, which then gives twisted "we're the best country in the world" impression. US is a fine example, but I believe all countries are in, one way or the other. One should view critically the past and present of its own nation, focus on all aspects, and learn from mistakes. But nationalism/patriotism and objective critical thinking tend to go against each other in real world out there. So no, I prefer to not like patriotism, of any kind. Anyway, I feel more of a citizen of this world, rather than some area that belonged somewhere else 100 years ago, elsewhere 1000 yeats ago, and will for sure in another 1000 years in future. Once a person moves a bit around the world, perspective on this topic is changed for good (classic House quote - "Patriotism is nothing but loyalty to real estate")
oh_sigh 11y ago
I think this is implicit in Pikettys argument. e.g. from the article: > But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s.
- Atropos 11y ago
  Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???
  - Chinjut 11y ago
    The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.
    - Svip 11y ago
      Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.
      - danieltillett 11y ago
        Every debt has a lender and a borrower and the borrower does not force the lender to lend. At this point it is pretty clear that Greece can never pay off the debt which is just another way of saying that they should never have been lent the money in the first place. Write off the debt and vow to never lend the Greek state any money ever again. Both sides are at fault here.
chrisseaton 11y ago
As usual, some of the most frank moralistic discussion on this topic can be found in the Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0608nlb http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0608nlb (I think that's available worldwide).
lorenzfx 11y ago
What really gets me going is how "we" helped the banks fill their coffers and socialize the losses. Again. Lending Greece money went along with earning (comparably) a lot of interest exactly because of the high (perceived) threat of Greece defaulting. And now that it has (nearly) come to that, all the risk has been moved to the EZB, etc. I called my local elected representative about it, SPD (social democrat), and "voiced my concern", but only got met with talk about chain reactions and responsibility. Perhaps I shouldn't have shouted.
- dan00 11y ago
  > I called my local elected representative about it, SPD (social democrat), and "voiced my concern", but only got met with talk about chain reactions and responsibility. Perhaps I shouldn't have shouted. I think the problem is, that nobody really knows what had happened if we've let the banks die. The fear that the results might be a lot worse than the current situation is perhaps the driving force of politics of the last years.
  - robinei 11y ago
    If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? Then we could shoulder the cost of getting the banks afloat again, and then subsequently regain some of the cost at least by selling them (instead of just giving taxpayer money to the risk-taking share holders like we do now)
    - dan00 11y ago
      > If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? That sounds a bit like only risk-taking share holders would have been harmed and that wouldn't be much harm for the society at all. I really don't think that the harm would be that focused, because banks aren't only about risk-taking share holders and because of the interconnection of banks at the end someone might be harmed you've never thought about. I really don't envy any politician having to make a decision in such a case.

by HSO 11y ago

serve_yay 11y ago

Try using that line of thought when you're talking to a customs agent, let us know how it works out.

i_s 11y ago

> The theory of complex systems reminds us that aggregates can have properties that are not traceable to any individuals themselves. Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. I'm interested in those ideas. Can you give a link to any information about them?

chadaustin 11y ago
Some of my personal favorite resources on this topic: http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498 http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-... http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide/dp/0961825170 http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide/dp/0... http://www.amazon.com/Ackoffs-Best-Classic-Writings-Management/dp/0471316342 http://www.amazon.com/Ackoffs-Best-Classic-Writings-Manageme... I really enjoyed these books, but I am not super well-read in this area, so there may be better ones out there. You could try searching for "systems theory" and see what other resources are out there. Systems theory is a very broad topic, so you'll find it attached to many specific disciplines, but the general idea is that you can take a bunch of simple things, hook them together, and produce a "being" that has totally weird behavior in aggregate.
cb18 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
ajmurmann 11y ago
Awesome book by Nobel price winning Thomas Schelling: Micromotive and Macrobheavior http://www.amazon.com/Micromotives-Macrobehavior-Thomas-C-Schelling/dp/0393329461 http://www.amazon.com/Micromotives-Macrobehavior-Thomas-C-Sc...
aaimnr 11y ago
This one seems to stand out: http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557/ http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/...

return0 11y ago

You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe.

cb18 11y ago
You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe. As it should, with so many countries being invaded[0] by raping and pillaging hordes[1]. (I don't know what "an aging Europe" has to do with it, it's the older generation that has failed us, leaving it to us to avert disaster.) [0] http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-italy/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-... http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0617/Seeking-Refuge-How-the-migration-crisis-is-shaking-Europe-at-its-core-video http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0617/Seeking-Refu... "The jihadist forces, in solidarity with Daesh, have taken control of part of Libya, obviously seeking to organize a massive immigration toward Europe. In their minds, it is an invasion" http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-islamic-invasion-of-europe.html http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-islamic-invasion... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+invasion+2015 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+invasion+2015 "Refugees" in fact consist solely of military aged men http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-uncategorised/immigration/220-what-the-media-won-t-say-about-the-african-invasion http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-uncategorised/immigration... [1] "As one police officer said to me, 'There isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited.' We should start from the assumption that children are being sexually exploited right the way across the country." http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-grooming http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-groomin... "Jay's initial report published on 26 August 2014 revealed that the number of children sexually exploited in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 was, by "conservative estimate", at least 1,400." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#Alexis_Jay_inquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang "Or the spike in rapes that now puts Sweden at #2 in the world. Or the #1 spot in the world for school arsons." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-sweden/ http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-g... http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/ http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-officia... "Last night was yet another flare-up in infamous Stockholm ghetto Tensta. A crowd of 50-something masked thugs were hurling rocks and molotov cocktails at police and fire fighters. But noone was killed and police only had to fire warning shots in the air, so no big deal. Ho-hum, in the “new normal” of Sweden." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/23/riots-are-caused-by-police-doing-their-jobs/ http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/23/riots-are-caused-by-polic... http://en.europenews.dk/Sweden-Tops-Europe-for-Number-of-Rapes-Muslim-Rape-Jihad-78413.html http://en.europenews.dk/Sweden-Tops-Europe-for-Number-of-Rap... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+rape+jihad https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+rape+jihad

vacri 11y ago

> Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. You don't need game theory of this, you just need history. Game theory is the hammer that thinks every problem is a nail.

fwn 11y ago
Just that history, other than logic, won't help people to solve problems. At the end of the day, every historic fact ruthlessly stretched into some assumed future is a risk for the people relying on unjustified assumptions.

luso_brazilian 11y ago

OK, I'll try to shed some light on why this subject tends to inflame some of the europeans nationalistic sentiment with a concrete example: 1. Meet Portugal (my country). Some may know us derisively as the P in PIGS because of our financial problems (much similar to the Greek one in nature and extent). In 2010 and 2011 as one of the 14 member states of the EU that were part of the Greek loan facility Portugal contributed with 1102 million euros into the 52.9 billion loan that greece received [1]. Yes, that's correct, not all of the debt that people are so eager to expect that German forgives is from their coffers, it was actually pooled from the following countries: Belgium, Cyprus, Germany, Estonia, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia and Spain. 2. As you may know, about the same time we had our own problems and also had to be bailed out. As part of the measures put in place to reduce our deficit a massive tax hike was implemented in the end of 2012 [2] I'll draw attention to single one of those measures: the 3.5% extraordinary tax on the income paid by every single person with income above minimum wage (485€/month) including pensioners. Now, for the money quote [3]: "Minister of Finance Vitor Gaspar said the tax would bring in 1025 million euros". Less than what Portugal contributed to the Greek bailout fund. 3.5% of the income of every citizen in this country. In conclusion, that's one of the reasons for the nationalistic outrage against Greece defaulting the loan. It is not only the money of the richest bankers of Europe that won't be repaid, it is the taxpayer money of each of those countries that contributed to their rescue. To put in perspective, 1102 million euros means that default would cost every inhabitant in this country 110 euros (about 330€ per household) and not only hypothetically but in practice too as demonstrated above. EDIT: Changed second link as it was paywalled for the same news, but on CNN [1] http://www.rekenkamer.nl/english/Publications/Topics/EU_governance_to_combat_the_economic_and_financial_crisis/Financial_stability_instruments/Financial_instruments/Greek_loan_facility http://www.rekenkamer.nl/english/Publications/Topics/EU_gove... [2] http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/31/business/portugal-fiscal-tax-increase/ http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/31/business/portugal-fiscal-t... [3] http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/other/governments-first-bill-taxes-christmas-allowance http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/article...

shoo 11y ago
Thank you for clearly explaining where some of the money came from, and pointing out this subtlety. It is perhaps interesting to compare Portugal's contribution to Germany's after crudely normalising by GDP: * Portugal contributed about 0.48% of its GDP in loans, compared to Germany's contribution of around 0.41%. * Portugal's GDP / capita is a bit less than than half of that of Germany

wyager 11y ago

When people say their government's money is "their money", they are not being literal; they mean "I contributed to that government's money supply, so I nominally have some say in how it is spent/symbolic partial ownership".

agumonkey 11y ago

For what it's worth I thought the interview was moralizing too. I find it too much on the blame side, even though it's an attempt at being honest, but it's hard to consider post-war state and economic crisis. Also bringing back war isn't the best way to avoid nationalism. Bringing a little more egoless theory in the picture is a nice idea.

tsotha 11y ago

A little nationalism is healthy for a country, though I grant too much is a problem.

ubernostrum 11y ago
Nationalism is healthy when it centers on positives about the country. Being proud of good things made or achieved by people from your country is fine, for example, especially as a call to action for achieving further good. It is unhealthy when it centers on negatives about other countries. Being proud that you're so much better than those lazy freeloaders across the border is not so great, for example.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  I tend to disagree. With nationalism/patriotism, you cannot avoid highlighting positivies of the past and skipping darker parts, which then gives twisted "we're the best country in the world" impression. US is a fine example, but I believe all countries are in, one way or the other. One should view critically the past and present of its own nation, focus on all aspects, and learn from mistakes. But nationalism/patriotism and objective critical thinking tend to go against each other in real world out there. So no, I prefer to not like patriotism, of any kind. Anyway, I feel more of a citizen of this world, rather than some area that belonged somewhere else 100 years ago, elsewhere 1000 yeats ago, and will for sure in another 1000 years in future. Once a person moves a bit around the world, perspective on this topic is changed for good (classic House quote - "Patriotism is nothing but loyalty to real estate")

oh_sigh 11y ago

I think this is implicit in Pikettys argument. e.g. from the article: > But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s.

Atropos 11y ago
Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???
- Chinjut 11y ago
  The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.
  - Svip 11y ago
    Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      Every debt has a lender and a borrower and the borrower does not force the lender to lend. At this point it is pretty clear that Greece can never pay off the debt which is just another way of saying that they should never have been lent the money in the first place. Write off the debt and vow to never lend the Greek state any money ever again. Both sides are at fault here.

chrisseaton 11y ago

As usual, some of the most frank moralistic discussion on this topic can be found in the Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0608nlb http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0608nlb (I think that's available worldwide).

lorenzfx 11y ago

What really gets me going is how "we" helped the banks fill their coffers and socialize the losses. Again. Lending Greece money went along with earning (comparably) a lot of interest exactly because of the high (perceived) threat of Greece defaulting. And now that it has (nearly) come to that, all the risk has been moved to the EZB, etc. I called my local elected representative about it, SPD (social democrat), and "voiced my concern", but only got met with talk about chain reactions and responsibility. Perhaps I shouldn't have shouted.

dan00 11y ago
> I called my local elected representative about it, SPD (social democrat), and "voiced my concern", but only got met with talk about chain reactions and responsibility. Perhaps I shouldn't have shouted. I think the problem is, that nobody really knows what had happened if we've let the banks die. The fear that the results might be a lot worse than the current situation is perhaps the driving force of politics of the last years.
- robinei 11y ago
  If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? Then we could shoulder the cost of getting the banks afloat again, and then subsequently regain some of the cost at least by selling them (instead of just giving taxpayer money to the risk-taking share holders like we do now)
  - dan00 11y ago
    > If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? That sounds a bit like only risk-taking share holders would have been harmed and that wouldn't be much harm for the society at all. I really don't think that the harm would be that focused, because banks aren't only about risk-taking share holders and because of the interconnection of banks at the end someone might be harmed you've never thought about. I really don't envy any politician having to make a decision in such a case.