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>There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. Which allows u

>There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. Which allows us to provide a further distinction: the country who had everything destroyed was directly responsible for that destruction. Yet, the debt that they racked up because they tried to take over eurasia while killing and torturing millions in the process, was forgiven not many years after the killings and torturings took place. I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable?

peterfirefly 11y ago
> I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. Which reminds me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War 158,000 killed due to those bloody stupid Communists :(
- pacifist 11y ago
  Here's another take on it: [1]"As the war’s outcome became apparent, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill was determined to return Greece to the prewar rule of the monarchy and the old regime. He was motivated by fear of Communist influence within the resistance movement. Churchill tried to get the Anglo-American army that was getting ready to invade Italy to attack Greece instead. Indeed, he tried so hard to change the war plan that he almost broke up the Allied military alliance; when he failed, he threw all the soldiers he still controlled into Greece and precipitated a civil war that tore the country apart." [1] http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942363 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942363
- kungfooguru 11y ago
  You mean damn those Greeks wanting to run their own lives? Something that was violently crushed and kept through an oppressive military junta?
  - mercurial 11y ago
    As a left-wing guy, I find that comment funny. Ask Poland or Hungary how much Warsaw Pact nations enjoyed "running their own lives". And the junta was not before the end of the sixties.
vacri 11y ago
> I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. There isn't a major economy in the world that this does not describe. Perhaps not India. The "Race for Africa" was a low point for the UK and France, for example.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Please list one instance when the modern Greek state did as described.
  - spikels 11y ago
    Greek invasion of Turkey in 1919 was pretty ugly although the scale was different.
  - vacri 11y ago
    Please list one resource which describes the modern Greek state as a 'major economy'.
- GeneralMayhem 11y ago
  They can still claim some moral high ground in that, were they to go bankrupt today, colonialism was not directly the cause. That's not the case with Germany in the 40s/50s.
  - vacri 11y ago
    The debt forgiveness of Germany post-WWII shouldn't just be seen as altruism. The Soviet Bear was seen as a major threat by the Allies, and having a healthy buffer state was a significant factor in making policy around West German finances. If Greece was a buffer state against some monstrously powerful ideological opponent, you can bet that we'd be seeing considerably different politicking going on.
    - Naga 11y ago
      I wouldn't see it as altruism either, but I think you discount the fact that the Allies did not want a third war with Germany. There were factions within the American government that wanted to turn Germany into a deindustrialized field, but instead they built Germany up into a strong ally. It was more than to just counter the Soviets: They removed the German threat for good.
nostromo 11y ago
I'd draw a distinction between debts incurred by a democratically elected government and otherwise. I also think reparations are fundamentally different than loans. Comparing war reparations to loans is blurring the lines to make a political point.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  The Nazi government was more or less democratically elected, at least as much as Greece's government. Germany had loans forgiven less than one decade after they were systematically killing tens of thousands of people per day in gas chambers, human ovens, or worse and barely twelve years after they had firebombed London and other cities, resulting in 40,000 dead civilians.
  - Atropos 11y ago
    This is beyond ridiculous and in fact insulting to recent Greek governments. Come on, do you really think the media landscape and average knowledge of voters in 1933 in Germany was anywhere comparable to elections in Greece from 1990 onwards? Germany only became democratic after the 1st world war, had totally unstable governments, a head of state who openly did not believe in democracy (Hindenburg), the great depression hit and SA troops were beating people up in the streets.
  - pluma 11y ago
    I wonder why Germany never suffered any consequences for what they did in WW2. Oh, wait. They did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Think of it like this: when a country needs to 'borrow', they're selling bonds. An investment vehicle. If you buy bad bonds as a typical investor, no one bails you out - you lose your investment. That's how it should have gone for Greece. Their 'investors' should have lost during the crisis, like everyone else, instead the Euro governments bailed them out and created this prolonged mess...
sgnelson 11y ago
I'll put it this way. World War I: Germany loses, is forced to pay not just debt, but reparations. Huge economic and political instability as a result leads to a new leadership which leads directly to World War II. World War II: Germany loses, is split up, due to the Marshall plan (in part do to a fear of Communism, so not solely due to compassion), West Germany given millions of dollars to rebuild, a rather thriving democracy and economy is created as a result. Which of these is the better option?
- MaysonL 11y ago
  In other words, Greece should declare war, and get occupied? (It probably would be better for them than what's going to happen). If only there was a way to resurrect Marshall and Ike, and make them dictators over Greece…
  - sgnelson 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared
- saool 11y ago
  Probably the one where the country that is indebted and in need of development gets 60% of their debt forgiven and an stimulus plan.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I guess it's not clear what you're arguing then. It seemed as though you believe Greece's debt should not be forgiven. [Note: Germany paid less than half of its WWI reparations, until recently. I'm not sure what WWI debt you are referring to though.]
  - muro 11y ago
    In "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", there is argument that the original reparations were make-believe and impossible. The 1929 revision was probably closer to reality and Germany did recently repay them. [at least according to news articles from 2010]
woodpanel 11y ago
Following your lead: Then let's start by assigning a value to each person killed in WWII and the moral righteousness (or lack thereof) leading to the person's death. Yes quite the humane and reasonable trait in a time of total destruction. Very helpful. Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator in that time after WWII would have "accounted" that debt.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are we going to assign values to each fault of Greece as well and then compare them to your WWII calculation? >Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator in that time after WWII would have "accounted" that debt. My clear "opinion of responsibility"? You mean, my assertion that Germany was responsible for the destruction mentioned by sgnelson and the killing and torturing of millions that I brought up? Do you reject that assertion? Modern debt is an inherently ridiculous proposition. It can only ever expand or collapse. The longer the world tries to solve its problems using it, the more comical it becomes.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable? Because the Treaty of Versailles was tried the first time, to penalize Germany with onerous debts for starting WW1, and WW2 was the direct result. After WW2, the Allied occupiers weren't thinking, "How can we penalize Germany?", they were thinking, "How can we prevent another damned war!?". Unfortunately, this time people are still thinking, "How can we penalize Greece?", as if that will help the EU at all in the future.
- rtpg 11y ago
  And austerity has been shown to be a remarkable failure for any form of economic recovery not just the first, but pretty much every time any country has tried it Why would you try it on Greece then?
  - mattmcknight 11y ago
    How would you define austerity for the Greece? To have public spending at 58% of GDP?
    - toyg 11y ago
      If your economy collapses, partially because of global recession and partially due to corruption enabled by cheap foreign money looking for a quick buck, your GDP ratios all look worse all of a sudden.
    - twobits 11y ago
      I'd define it as me paying 90% taxes last year, while my country is still getting worse.
      - Djeman 11y ago
        Austerity isn't about rising taxes, as much, as about lowering government costs.
mnglkhn2 11y ago
There's an argument to be made that the debt forgiveness came after the realization that maybe the WW2 was also a result of the crushing debt imposed on Germany after WW1.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  It's questionable how directly Versailles caused WW2. WW2 was caused in no small part by the Wall St Crash, which was a direct cause of hyperinflation in Germany, and by delusional industrialists who thought that financing Hitler would be a good way to avoid a revolution. At least one of them - Thyssen - ended up in a concentration camp. So that didn't work out so well for him. The others have never been held accountable. Weimar could easily have been rescued if the Nazi party hadn't received literally millions in external funding and other forms of corporate support. In a counterfactual reality, Europe would probably have united more quickly and peacefully. Technology wouldn't have developed as quickly, but there would have been an arms race and perhaps a war with the Soviet Union sooner or later. Some background: http://www.businesspundit.com/10-global-businesses-that-worked-with-the-nazis/ http://www.businesspundit.com/10-global-businesses-that-work... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen
  - tjradcliffe 11y ago
    > WW2 was caused in no small part by the Wall St Crash, which was a direct cause of hyperinflation in Germany Could you please clarify how the Crash of '29 caused hyperinflation in Germany in the early 1920's? Or do you mean the August 1919 to December 1920 slide? That doesn't suffer from violations of the law of causality, but nor is there any evidence that it caused the Weimar government to print ever increasing amounts of money in higher and higher denominations, which started in June 1921, six months after Wall Street had started to recover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_R...

peterfirefly 11y ago

> I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. Which reminds me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War 158,000 killed due to those bloody stupid Communists :(

pacifist 11y ago
Here's another take on it: [1]"As the war’s outcome became apparent, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill was determined to return Greece to the prewar rule of the monarchy and the old regime. He was motivated by fear of Communist influence within the resistance movement. Churchill tried to get the Anglo-American army that was getting ready to invade Italy to attack Greece instead. Indeed, he tried so hard to change the war plan that he almost broke up the Allied military alliance; when he failed, he threw all the soldiers he still controlled into Greece and precipitated a civil war that tore the country apart." [1] http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942363 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026942363
kungfooguru 11y ago
You mean damn those Greeks wanting to run their own lives? Something that was violently crushed and kept through an oppressive military junta?
- mercurial 11y ago
  As a left-wing guy, I find that comment funny. Ask Poland or Hungary how much Warsaw Pact nations enjoyed "running their own lives". And the junta was not before the end of the sixties.

vacri 11y ago

> I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. There isn't a major economy in the world that this does not describe. Perhaps not India. The "Race for Africa" was a low point for the UK and France, for example.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
Please list one instance when the modern Greek state did as described.
- spikels 11y ago
  Greek invasion of Turkey in 1919 was pretty ugly although the scale was different.
- vacri 11y ago
  Please list one resource which describes the modern Greek state as a 'major economy'.
GeneralMayhem 11y ago
They can still claim some moral high ground in that, were they to go bankrupt today, colonialism was not directly the cause. That's not the case with Germany in the 40s/50s.
- vacri 11y ago
  The debt forgiveness of Germany post-WWII shouldn't just be seen as altruism. The Soviet Bear was seen as a major threat by the Allies, and having a healthy buffer state was a significant factor in making policy around West German finances. If Greece was a buffer state against some monstrously powerful ideological opponent, you can bet that we'd be seeing considerably different politicking going on.
  - Naga 11y ago
    I wouldn't see it as altruism either, but I think you discount the fact that the Allies did not want a third war with Germany. There were factions within the American government that wanted to turn Germany into a deindustrialized field, but instead they built Germany up into a strong ally. It was more than to just counter the Soviets: They removed the German threat for good.

nostromo 11y ago

I'd draw a distinction between debts incurred by a democratically elected government and otherwise. I also think reparations are fundamentally different than loans. Comparing war reparations to loans is blurring the lines to make a political point.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
The Nazi government was more or less democratically elected, at least as much as Greece's government. Germany had loans forgiven less than one decade after they were systematically killing tens of thousands of people per day in gas chambers, human ovens, or worse and barely twelve years after they had firebombed London and other cities, resulting in 40,000 dead civilians.
- Atropos 11y ago
  This is beyond ridiculous and in fact insulting to recent Greek governments. Come on, do you really think the media landscape and average knowledge of voters in 1933 in Germany was anywhere comparable to elections in Greece from 1990 onwards? Germany only became democratic after the 1st world war, had totally unstable governments, a head of state who openly did not believe in democracy (Hindenburg), the great depression hit and SA troops were beating people up in the streets.
- pluma 11y ago
  I wonder why Germany never suffered any consequences for what they did in WW2. Oh, wait. They did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference
Mikeb85 11y ago
Think of it like this: when a country needs to 'borrow', they're selling bonds. An investment vehicle. If you buy bad bonds as a typical investor, no one bails you out - you lose your investment. That's how it should have gone for Greece. Their 'investors' should have lost during the crisis, like everyone else, instead the Euro governments bailed them out and created this prolonged mess...

sgnelson 11y ago

I'll put it this way. World War I: Germany loses, is forced to pay not just debt, but reparations. Huge economic and political instability as a result leads to a new leadership which leads directly to World War II. World War II: Germany loses, is split up, due to the Marshall plan (in part do to a fear of Communism, so not solely due to compassion), West Germany given millions of dollars to rebuild, a rather thriving democracy and economy is created as a result. Which of these is the better option?

MaysonL 11y ago
In other words, Greece should declare war, and get occupied? (It probably would be better for them than what's going to happen). If only there was a way to resurrect Marshall and Ike, and make them dictators over Greece…
- sgnelson 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared
saool 11y ago
Probably the one where the country that is indebted and in need of development gets 60% of their debt forgiven and an stimulus plan.
jsprogrammer 11y ago
I guess it's not clear what you're arguing then. It seemed as though you believe Greece's debt should not be forgiven. [Note: Germany paid less than half of its WWI reparations, until recently. I'm not sure what WWI debt you are referring to though.]
- muro 11y ago
  In "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", there is argument that the original reparations were make-believe and impossible. The 1929 revision was probably closer to reality and Germany did recently repay them. [at least according to news articles from 2010]

woodpanel 11y ago

Following your lead: Then let's start by assigning a value to each person killed in WWII and the moral righteousness (or lack thereof) leading to the person's death. Yes quite the humane and reasonable trait in a time of total destruction. Very helpful. Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator in that time after WWII would have "accounted" that debt.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are we going to assign values to each fault of Greece as well and then compare them to your WWII calculation? >Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator in that time after WWII would have "accounted" that debt. My clear "opinion of responsibility"? You mean, my assertion that Germany was responsible for the destruction mentioned by sgnelson and the killing and torturing of millions that I brought up? Do you reject that assertion? Modern debt is an inherently ridiculous proposition. It can only ever expand or collapse. The longer the world tries to solve its problems using it, the more comical it becomes.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable? Because the Treaty of Versailles was tried the first time, to penalize Germany with onerous debts for starting WW1, and WW2 was the direct result. After WW2, the Allied occupiers weren't thinking, "How can we penalize Germany?", they were thinking, "How can we prevent another damned war!?". Unfortunately, this time people are still thinking, "How can we penalize Greece?", as if that will help the EU at all in the future.

rtpg 11y ago
And austerity has been shown to be a remarkable failure for any form of economic recovery not just the first, but pretty much every time any country has tried it Why would you try it on Greece then?
- mattmcknight 11y ago
  How would you define austerity for the Greece? To have public spending at 58% of GDP?
  - toyg 11y ago
    If your economy collapses, partially because of global recession and partially due to corruption enabled by cheap foreign money looking for a quick buck, your GDP ratios all look worse all of a sudden.
  - twobits 11y ago
    I'd define it as me paying 90% taxes last year, while my country is still getting worse.
    - Djeman 11y ago
      Austerity isn't about rising taxes, as much, as about lowering government costs.

mnglkhn2 11y ago

There's an argument to be made that the debt forgiveness came after the realization that maybe the WW2 was also a result of the crushing debt imposed on Germany after WW1.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
It's questionable how directly Versailles caused WW2. WW2 was caused in no small part by the Wall St Crash, which was a direct cause of hyperinflation in Germany, and by delusional industrialists who thought that financing Hitler would be a good way to avoid a revolution. At least one of them - Thyssen - ended up in a concentration camp. So that didn't work out so well for him. The others have never been held accountable. Weimar could easily have been rescued if the Nazi party hadn't received literally millions in external funding and other forms of corporate support. In a counterfactual reality, Europe would probably have united more quickly and peacefully. Technology wouldn't have developed as quickly, but there would have been an arms race and perhaps a war with the Soviet Union sooner or later. Some background: http://www.businesspundit.com/10-global-businesses-that-worked-with-the-nazis/ http://www.businesspundit.com/10-global-businesses-that-work... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen
- tjradcliffe 11y ago
  > WW2 was caused in no small part by the Wall St Crash, which was a direct cause of hyperinflation in Germany Could you please clarify how the Crash of '29 caused hyperinflation in Germany in the early 1920's? Or do you mean the August 1919 to December 1920 slide? That doesn't suffer from violations of the law of causality, but nor is there any evidence that it caused the Weimar government to print ever increasing amounts of money in higher and higher denominations, which started in June 1921, six months after Wall Street had started to recover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_R...