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Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanageme

by mb_72 11y ago

Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe you should have thought about how your country has been run and realise that - sooner or later - that is going to cost you jobs and economic stability.

gutnor 11y ago
How much research did you do into all the fiscal decisions of the country you live in ? Are you even qualified enough to interpret the result at all ?It seems to me you are asking from the average Joe Greek more than professional actually did. Also "Greece" is not a single entity. Making Greece pay does not mean making the people that created the debt pay - it means taking the available money and you should know that "available money" is generally not rich people money. So yes, you are right that you do not want to reward such behaviour. Letting the actual responsible get away with it and punish somebody else is not the way to do it though.
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  Agreed, the people who mismanaged and/or stole the money in previous years are GONE. Why punish the average Joe in Greece? What will it achieve?
  - empressplay 11y ago
    The point of democracy is that the people appoint representatives to act on their behalf -- as such, the public is indeed fully responsible for what their politicians do, like it or not, whether an individual voted for them or not. There is no abdication of responsibility in a democracy and the Greeks should know that better than anyone.
    - gutnor 11y ago
      > There is no abdication of responsibility in a democracy and the Greeks should know that better than anyone. You get history sadly backward. The no abdication of responsibility is what dragged the world in 2 world wars and what Europe is supposed to fix.
    - monk_e_boy 11y ago
      I understand and don't know the specifics of how the average Greek voted, but here in the UK the government got in with less than 40% of the vote. > The point of democracy is that the people appoint representatives to act on their behalf in a perfect world, yes this should happen. But look around, the system isn't perfect. Look at america, money buys power. The money isn't evenly distributed. The system is broken.
    - cmavr8 11y ago
      The law that regulates elections in Greece is flawed (IMO). It assigns the percentages of small parties to the first one, to help it achieve majority in Parliament and be able to govern. This may sound wise, but motivates mainstream parties to not cooperate with smaller ones, and keeps minorities out of parliament. AFAIK there are countries (NL?) that traditionally could not elect self-contained governments so parties were forced to cooperate with other, which in turn created politics of accommodation. I think this is healthier than blocking minorities out of parliament. Syriza got elected with 36.3% back in January, while ~64% of Greeks voted. Also, what happens if a voter agrees with none of the choices (parties)? Is he responsible for what their government does? (Legally yes, that's democracy, but ethically he should be given the right to object) Oh, let's not forget that Greeks leaving outside Greece (some say we're another 10mil out here) were not given the chance to vote neither in the elections or referendum. We had to travel back to do so...
  - Paradigma11 11y ago
    The problem is that it the average Joes in Greece also paid no taxes, got fake disability benefits..... Typically a system works okish if only the people at the top skim, because they are rather few. If the rest starts showing the same behaviour, that's when the system crashes.
    - gutnor 11y ago
      > Typically a system works okish if only the people at the top skim That's not how that works though. People one level under the top will try to get their cut too, then the level under until you get to the bottom. The system is ok-ish if the overall level of corruption is somewhat reasonable. In the case of Greece, the amount of corruption at the bottom level is not the cause, but the symptom of the fucked up state all the way up. Now, there is a difference between the top and bottom. The whole bottom level is creating a black economy. Not as good as a regular market, but something that self sustain itself. See Greece pre-euro. The few people a top though are the one that forged the accounts of Greece and pushed the country in its death spiral.
- mb_72 11y ago
  I don't believe for one moment that corruption and tax avoidance has been eliminated from Greece. I would wager there are a number complaining about the 'harsh' EU treatment who have also not done the right thing by their government and fellow Greeks. Besides - why should other countries be equally or more responsible for Greece's problems than the people of Greece themselves? It just doesn't make any sense.
nemik 11y ago
So what do you think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_Ext... ? Perhaps everyone in Germany would be better off still re-paying that 50% that was just removed.
- sbuk 11y ago
  Not even close to being the same thing.

by mb_72 11y ago

gutnor 11y ago

How much research did you do into all the fiscal decisions of the country you live in ? Are you even qualified enough to interpret the result at all ?It seems to me you are asking from the average Joe Greek more than professional actually did. Also "Greece" is not a single entity. Making Greece pay does not mean making the people that created the debt pay - it means taking the available money and you should know that "available money" is generally not rich people money. So yes, you are right that you do not want to reward such behaviour. Letting the actual responsible get away with it and punish somebody else is not the way to do it though.

monk_e_boy 11y ago
Agreed, the people who mismanaged and/or stole the money in previous years are GONE. Why punish the average Joe in Greece? What will it achieve?
- empressplay 11y ago
  The point of democracy is that the people appoint representatives to act on their behalf -- as such, the public is indeed fully responsible for what their politicians do, like it or not, whether an individual voted for them or not. There is no abdication of responsibility in a democracy and the Greeks should know that better than anyone.
  - gutnor 11y ago
    > There is no abdication of responsibility in a democracy and the Greeks should know that better than anyone. You get history sadly backward. The no abdication of responsibility is what dragged the world in 2 world wars and what Europe is supposed to fix.
  - monk_e_boy 11y ago
    I understand and don't know the specifics of how the average Greek voted, but here in the UK the government got in with less than 40% of the vote. > The point of democracy is that the people appoint representatives to act on their behalf in a perfect world, yes this should happen. But look around, the system isn't perfect. Look at america, money buys power. The money isn't evenly distributed. The system is broken.
  - cmavr8 11y ago
    The law that regulates elections in Greece is flawed (IMO). It assigns the percentages of small parties to the first one, to help it achieve majority in Parliament and be able to govern. This may sound wise, but motivates mainstream parties to not cooperate with smaller ones, and keeps minorities out of parliament. AFAIK there are countries (NL?) that traditionally could not elect self-contained governments so parties were forced to cooperate with other, which in turn created politics of accommodation. I think this is healthier than blocking minorities out of parliament. Syriza got elected with 36.3% back in January, while ~64% of Greeks voted. Also, what happens if a voter agrees with none of the choices (parties)? Is he responsible for what their government does? (Legally yes, that's democracy, but ethically he should be given the right to object) Oh, let's not forget that Greeks leaving outside Greece (some say we're another 10mil out here) were not given the chance to vote neither in the elections or referendum. We had to travel back to do so...
- Paradigma11 11y ago
  The problem is that it the average Joes in Greece also paid no taxes, got fake disability benefits..... Typically a system works okish if only the people at the top skim, because they are rather few. If the rest starts showing the same behaviour, that's when the system crashes.
  - gutnor 11y ago
    > Typically a system works okish if only the people at the top skim That's not how that works though. People one level under the top will try to get their cut too, then the level under until you get to the bottom. The system is ok-ish if the overall level of corruption is somewhat reasonable. In the case of Greece, the amount of corruption at the bottom level is not the cause, but the symptom of the fucked up state all the way up. Now, there is a difference between the top and bottom. The whole bottom level is creating a black economy. Not as good as a regular market, but something that self sustain itself. See Greece pre-euro. The few people a top though are the one that forged the accounts of Greece and pushed the country in its death spiral.
mb_72 11y ago
I don't believe for one moment that corruption and tax avoidance has been eliminated from Greece. I would wager there are a number complaining about the 'harsh' EU treatment who have also not done the right thing by their government and fellow Greeks. Besides - why should other countries be equally or more responsible for Greece's problems than the people of Greece themselves? It just doesn't make any sense.

nemik 11y ago

So what do you think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_Ext... ? Perhaps everyone in Germany would be better off still re-paying that 50% that was just removed.

sbuk 11y ago
Not even close to being the same thing.