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One could certainly happen in the US, for the people are very well armed and are continuing to arm themselves at a rate I find alarming, even if, or because, I'

by hga 11y ago

One could certainly happen in the US, for the people are very well armed and are continuing to arm themselves at a rate I find alarming, even if, or because, I'm one of them. The militarization of law enforcement doesn't mean much, e.g. look at how they completely loose there shit in the face of one disturbed, not very clever or effective assassin like Christopher Dorner [ADDED: there's a lot of cargo culting here; giving 10 police officer M16s/M4s, SAWs and grenades does not magically turn them into an US Army infantry squad]. At the other extreme, we the people can completely swamp them in a matter of hours, but of course motivating us to do that would be quite a trick. "Advanced weaponry" is of no use without the will to use it. As an extreme example, a few nukes could terminate ISIS with extreme prejudice and collateral damage, but I don't know of any serious "hawk" even suggesting [WAS: advocating] their use. I have grave doubts about your closing point, "a last resort if inequality continues at this rate"; is that so bad it's worth killing millions of people to merely attempt to fix it, with many and perhaps the most likely end results further emphasizing it? For that matter, who/what groups are going to start pulling triggers?

joshuapants 11y ago
> "Advanced weaponry" is of no use without the will to use it. As an extreme example, a few nukes could terminate ISIS with extreme prejudice and collateral damage, but I don't know of any serious "hawk" even advocating their use. Very good point. Air support of any kind would be unhelpful in a revolution because the government would, understandably, be reluctant to bomb the hell out of its own population/economic centers.
scottwhudson 11y ago
I don't understand why the pro-gun community doesn't take a stronger stance against mass surveillance, "swamping" a group of law enforcement requires communication that can't be deciphered, and the general public has little interest in that. History tells us that communication wins wars (think cracking the enigma machine), but we're losing the ability to communicate privately at an alarming rate. How do you plan to "swarm" when the safest method of communication is the carrier pigeon?
- hga 11y ago
  What "harder stance" would you suggest we take??? We don't exactly view mass surveillance with approval (note how that first vote in the House didn't break along any obvious lines), and I'll attest that, when not legally required, many companies in the guns and ammo business are dreadfully bad at keeping long term records.... The "swamping" concept I was referring to was something of a thought experiment, e.g. imagine an out of science fiction effective speech broadcast to enough people that it doesn't matter that the police know "the people" are coming right now. As for your general point, people who think about this sort of thing often focus on the old techniques like cells, one time pads, etc., subverting those listening in, etc. etc. Plus I'd add, just how effective do you really think governments are, especially against "non-crazy" people. That's the real danger I see, that "middle class" or thereabouts people like me get upset enough to take up arms, instead of the usual suspects like the Weather Underground. Note our "revolutionary" Founding Fathers, especially apropos this day after the anniversary of Declaration of Independence. And there's a relatively new "leaderless resistance" concept where individuals not in close communications nonetheless take effective action. Again, see how "effective" for some value of effective Christoper Dorner, working alone, was. One man, or a small group, can be dreadfully effective nowadays.
  - reagency 11y ago
    Relatively new? Guerilla war and resistance is centuries old.
    - hga 11y ago
      Per Wikipedia, this concept only goes back to the early '60s, which matches my general reading on this sort of thing in the '70s as I struggled to understand what had just happened in the Vietnam War (I came of political age just as it was ending): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance#History
      - wavefunction 11y ago
        The early revolution certainly saw the emergence of guerilla warfare if not earlier instances providing that same starting-point. War was a formal issue for many clashes throughout the ages: generally an amassing of resources, a relative comparison and victory to the amasser of "more" with some casualties paid as an afterthought. But guerilla warfare presuposes that a more numerous and detested occupier cannot win because they are faced with a choice of extinguishing their enemies (the domestic population conquered) or being driven from those same holdings.

by hga 11y ago

joshuapants 11y ago

> "Advanced weaponry" is of no use without the will to use it. As an extreme example, a few nukes could terminate ISIS with extreme prejudice and collateral damage, but I don't know of any serious "hawk" even advocating their use. Very good point. Air support of any kind would be unhelpful in a revolution because the government would, understandably, be reluctant to bomb the hell out of its own population/economic centers.

scottwhudson 11y ago

I don't understand why the pro-gun community doesn't take a stronger stance against mass surveillance, "swamping" a group of law enforcement requires communication that can't be deciphered, and the general public has little interest in that. History tells us that communication wins wars (think cracking the enigma machine), but we're losing the ability to communicate privately at an alarming rate. How do you plan to "swarm" when the safest method of communication is the carrier pigeon?

hga 11y ago
What "harder stance" would you suggest we take??? We don't exactly view mass surveillance with approval (note how that first vote in the House didn't break along any obvious lines), and I'll attest that, when not legally required, many companies in the guns and ammo business are dreadfully bad at keeping long term records.... The "swamping" concept I was referring to was something of a thought experiment, e.g. imagine an out of science fiction effective speech broadcast to enough people that it doesn't matter that the police know "the people" are coming right now. As for your general point, people who think about this sort of thing often focus on the old techniques like cells, one time pads, etc., subverting those listening in, etc. etc. Plus I'd add, just how effective do you really think governments are, especially against "non-crazy" people. That's the real danger I see, that "middle class" or thereabouts people like me get upset enough to take up arms, instead of the usual suspects like the Weather Underground. Note our "revolutionary" Founding Fathers, especially apropos this day after the anniversary of Declaration of Independence. And there's a relatively new "leaderless resistance" concept where individuals not in close communications nonetheless take effective action. Again, see how "effective" for some value of effective Christoper Dorner, working alone, was. One man, or a small group, can be dreadfully effective nowadays.
- reagency 11y ago
  Relatively new? Guerilla war and resistance is centuries old.
  - hga 11y ago
    Per Wikipedia, this concept only goes back to the early '60s, which matches my general reading on this sort of thing in the '70s as I struggled to understand what had just happened in the Vietnam War (I came of political age just as it was ending): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaderless_resistance#History
    - wavefunction 11y ago
      The early revolution certainly saw the emergence of guerilla warfare if not earlier instances providing that same starting-point. War was a formal issue for many clashes throughout the ages: generally an amassing of resources, a relative comparison and victory to the amasser of "more" with some casualties paid as an afterthought. But guerilla warfare presuposes that a more numerous and detested occupier cannot win because they are faced with a choice of extinguishing their enemies (the domestic population conquered) or being driven from those same holdings.