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> The movement of electrons that gives rise to consciousness (or is interpreted as consciousness), creates information. This process is an abstraction from the

> The movement of electrons that gives rise to consciousness (or is interpreted as consciousness), creates information. This process is an abstraction from the physical world. It's not clear to me what you mean when you say consciousness is an abstraction - is this dualism? Consciousness seems pretty thoroughly grounded in real stuff. Intelligent agents might "create information" in some sense, but there is no indication that they do it by breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

p1esk 11y ago
No, not dualism. I meant this abstraction in the same sense as moving from the level of transistors when talking about a computer, to the level of, say, C++ objects in the software that runs on that computer. I'm not sure I understand your reference to thermodynamics. Information is created when a certain meaning is assigned to a pattern. Who assigns that meaning? As you said - an intelligent agent. This intelligent agent is the abstraction I'm talking about. It can be implemented with electrons flowing between neurons, or with photons in some kind of an optical computer - the physical implementation is not important. The high level structure and operation are important, that's why I think that simulating a human consciousness on a computer will result in a real consciousness, unlike simulating a rain. It might not be exactly the same consciousness as the original one, but it can be arbitrary close. For example, we can simulate Atari 2600 console on a modern computer in sufficient detail to play games exactly the same as we would play them on the real, physical console. We don't need to simulate every transistor in the original console for that.
- deciplex 11y ago
  Fair enough. I brought up thermodynamics because you seemed to be implying that intelligent agents would assign meaning to things without doing any work. It wasn't clear to me from where the "information" was being created. Would you agree that, in order for simulated rain to be "really rain", you would require a conscious person inside the simulation who regards it as such?
  - p1esk 11y ago
    "Would you agree that, in order for simulated rain to be "really rain", you would require a conscious person inside the simulation who regards it as such?" I'm not sure about your question: are you asking if we should regard the simulated rain to be real if it's real for a simulated person? This reminds me: "If a tree falls down in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Let's compare two situations: 1. There are real people on the other side of the world, who experience a real rain (but we, on this side of the world, can't experience that rain directly). 2. There are simulated people who experience a simulated rain, which is real to them. The simulated people have real consciousness, and are indistinguishable from real people if viewed within their virtual world. They can even control robotic human-like bodies in the real world. Can we say the simulated people are real? What if we regard the virtual world to be an extension of the real world, like the "New World" (the Americas) was considered to be an extension of the Old World? In that case, the rain experienced by virtual people is just as real as the rain experienced by the real people on the other side of the real world. Thanks for such an interesting question!

p1esk 11y ago

No, not dualism. I meant this abstraction in the same sense as moving from the level of transistors when talking about a computer, to the level of, say, C++ objects in the software that runs on that computer. I'm not sure I understand your reference to thermodynamics. Information is created when a certain meaning is assigned to a pattern. Who assigns that meaning? As you said - an intelligent agent. This intelligent agent is the abstraction I'm talking about. It can be implemented with electrons flowing between neurons, or with photons in some kind of an optical computer - the physical implementation is not important. The high level structure and operation are important, that's why I think that simulating a human consciousness on a computer will result in a real consciousness, unlike simulating a rain. It might not be exactly the same consciousness as the original one, but it can be arbitrary close. For example, we can simulate Atari 2600 console on a modern computer in sufficient detail to play games exactly the same as we would play them on the real, physical console. We don't need to simulate every transistor in the original console for that.

deciplex 11y ago
Fair enough. I brought up thermodynamics because you seemed to be implying that intelligent agents would assign meaning to things without doing any work. It wasn't clear to me from where the "information" was being created. Would you agree that, in order for simulated rain to be "really rain", you would require a conscious person inside the simulation who regards it as such?
- p1esk 11y ago
  "Would you agree that, in order for simulated rain to be "really rain", you would require a conscious person inside the simulation who regards it as such?" I'm not sure about your question: are you asking if we should regard the simulated rain to be real if it's real for a simulated person? This reminds me: "If a tree falls down in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Let's compare two situations: 1. There are real people on the other side of the world, who experience a real rain (but we, on this side of the world, can't experience that rain directly). 2. There are simulated people who experience a simulated rain, which is real to them. The simulated people have real consciousness, and are indistinguishable from real people if viewed within their virtual world. They can even control robotic human-like bodies in the real world. Can we say the simulated people are real? What if we regard the virtual world to be an extension of the real world, like the "New World" (the Americas) was considered to be an extension of the Old World? In that case, the rain experienced by virtual people is just as real as the rain experienced by the real people on the other side of the real world. Thanks for such an interesting question!