7 ms·

Long story short: You believe that feminism has already gone so far that women have more rights than men, right?

by bayesianhorse 11y ago

MichaelCrawford 11y ago
Ever gone through a divorce?
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  So you promised to take care of your wife and children, and now you are held accountable to that promise? Buhu.
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    I know a woman whose husband divorced her because she had a totally senseless affair with her best friend's husband.
  - NotableAlamode 11y ago
    you promised to take care of your wife It's not an unconditional promise. The promise assumes that the partner does the same. Yet only men are being punished (via taking their children, houses, monies), a clearcut violation of their human rights that bayesianhorse is defending.
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      The usual wedding vows do not contain these conditions. Seems unfair, but then again, you don't need to marry, and not without a marriage contract...
      - NotableAlamode 11y ago
        Yes they do. I take you, ..., to be my husband and I promise before God and all who are present here to be your loving and faithful wife, as long as our lives shall last. I will serve you with tenderness and respect, and ... In other words, where the love stops, the tenderness, where she is unfaithful, she has broken the 'contract'. In that case there is no reason for the other side to uphold his part. No reason other than the near certainty that he will loose his house, his money and his children, ...
        bayesianhorse 11y ago
        Actually, cheating is not really breaking the contract. The unconditional promise includes "bad times". It's not really "his house" and "his money" anyway, because without a marriage contract, these where already partly hers in any case. It's a sexist standpoint to assume that all the wealth belongs to the husband, or that he earned it alone, even when the wife never got a paycheck.
        NotableAlamode 11y ago
        Adultery is a reason for divorve. The "bad times" refers to calamities beyond the partner's control like illness, accidents. The marriage contract is only valid as long as both parties stick to it. Adultery is a voluntary choice and automatically invalidates the (conventinal) marriage contract. Nobody says that house etc should automatically go to the husband. It should go to those who put the work in to build/buy the property. There are cases, alas rare as of 2015, where this is the wife. In this case, the house should go to the wife. However, as you know well, in the vast majority of cases, this is the husband. Staying at home is not really work. So de facto the contemporary practise of US divorce courts massively violates husbands' rights. As simple fix would be to institute (1) no fault = no alimony, and (2) shared 50/50 custody as norm. Anything else is sexism and cannot legitimately be defended.
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    It is not well understood that women are often the aggressors in domestic violence. If you dont believe me consider that such abuse is most common among lesbians.
minot 11y ago
Long story short: no.
NotableAlamode 11y ago
In the US and other western countries, women clearly have de-facto more rights than men. They are much more leniently punished for the same crimes, they are much more rarely homeless, they do get more attention (and money) from social services. In divorce cases they more or less automatically get the children and half of the husband's money. They commit suicide much less often, way fewer workplace deaths. They are allowed to vote but not subject to the draft.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Still they make less money, bear the cost/burden of child birth, are more likely to care for children, are more likely to be physically abused by their partners, more likely to be killed by their partner, and the list probably goes on...
  - NotableAlamode 11y ago
    Still they make less money, Wrong, they make more money for the same work. bear the cost/burden of child birth, With modern contraception tech, children is a lifestyle choice, like playing golf, a lifestyle choice they mostly volunteer for. are more likely to care for children, That's a lifestyle choice that they mostly enjoy. Child rearing is best seen as a long-term paid for holiday. are more likely to be physically abused by their partners, Men are are more likely to be emotionally abused by their partners, and emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse. Moreover, men don't complain so much physical abuse of men is not reported. more likely to be killed by their partner, The majority of all murder victims are men.
TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
That's not what the parent was saying at all. Would you be so kind as to explain how you came to this interpretation?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
iopq 11y ago
In the United States women are born with extra rights such as: 1. Intact genitalia - males don't have this right 2. The right to vote and receive financial aid - males only receive these benefits if they sign up for Selective Service 3. The right to choose parenthood - males have to pay for a child even if they don't want to. Women can choose to give up their child for adoption. A male can not choose not to be a parent.
- shoo 11y ago
  > A male can not choose not to be a parent. How about getting a vasectomy? That'd probably do the trick.
  - NotableAlamode 11y ago
    Vasectomy is not 100% reliable. Even after a successful vasectomy about 1 in 2,000 men will become fertile again at some point in the future. Moreover, having to engage in genital mutilation so as to avoid being tricked/lied/forced into fatherhood is hardly progressive.
    - arrrg 11y ago
      A biological difference leads to different options for different genders. (The delineation isn’t even strictly along gender lines, though, since this only applies to people who can become pregnant. Most of those are women, sure, but many women cannot become pregnant, for example.) If you value bodily autonomy (which I really hope you do – otherwise this discussion is kind of pointless) the only person who can decide what happens with their own body is the actual pregnant person – and no one else. This consequently means that we can only put this decision into their hands. It’s a function of the biological difference. I mean, misogynist assholes like to bang on and on and on about biological differences (most often referring to things we don’t even really know are biological differences) and how those make it imperative to treat genders differently – but here we have a crystal clear example of a biological difference leading to different options for different people – and suddenly that’s no ok?
makomk 11y ago
Long story short: feminists won't consider men and women equal until women are not worse off than men in any area, and will accuse anyone who tries to fix the areas where men are worse off of misogyny. This will never lead to equality, no matter who has more rights now. All the arguing about whether "women have more rights than men" is part of the problem, and that applies to both sides.
- NotableAlamode 11y ago
  All the arguing about whether "women have more rights than men" is part of the problem Why?

Long story short: You believe that feminism has already gone so far that women have more rights than men, right?

MichaelCrawford 11y ago

Ever gone through a divorce?

bayesianhorse 11y ago
So you promised to take care of your wife and children, and now you are held accountable to that promise? Buhu.
- MichaelCrawford 11y ago
  I know a woman whose husband divorced her because she had a totally senseless affair with her best friend's husband.
- NotableAlamode 11y ago
  you promised to take care of your wife It's not an unconditional promise. The promise assumes that the partner does the same. Yet only men are being punished (via taking their children, houses, monies), a clearcut violation of their human rights that bayesianhorse is defending.
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    The usual wedding vows do not contain these conditions. Seems unfair, but then again, you don't need to marry, and not without a marriage contract...
    - NotableAlamode 11y ago
      Yes they do. I take you, ..., to be my husband and I promise before God and all who are present here to be your loving and faithful wife, as long as our lives shall last. I will serve you with tenderness and respect, and ... In other words, where the love stops, the tenderness, where she is unfaithful, she has broken the 'contract'. In that case there is no reason for the other side to uphold his part. No reason other than the near certainty that he will loose his house, his money and his children, ...
      - bayesianhorse 11y ago
        Actually, cheating is not really breaking the contract. The unconditional promise includes "bad times". It's not really "his house" and "his money" anyway, because without a marriage contract, these where already partly hers in any case. It's a sexist standpoint to assume that all the wealth belongs to the husband, or that he earned it alone, even when the wife never got a paycheck.
        NotableAlamode 11y ago
        Adultery is a reason for divorve. The "bad times" refers to calamities beyond the partner's control like illness, accidents. The marriage contract is only valid as long as both parties stick to it. Adultery is a voluntary choice and automatically invalidates the (conventinal) marriage contract. Nobody says that house etc should automatically go to the husband. It should go to those who put the work in to build/buy the property. There are cases, alas rare as of 2015, where this is the wife. In this case, the house should go to the wife. However, as you know well, in the vast majority of cases, this is the husband. Staying at home is not really work. So de facto the contemporary practise of US divorce courts massively violates husbands' rights. As simple fix would be to institute (1) no fault = no alimony, and (2) shared 50/50 custody as norm. Anything else is sexism and cannot legitimately be defended.
- MichaelCrawford 11y ago
  It is not well understood that women are often the aggressors in domestic violence. If you dont believe me consider that such abuse is most common among lesbians.

minot 11y ago

Long story short: no.

NotableAlamode 11y ago

In the US and other western countries, women clearly have de-facto more rights than men. They are much more leniently punished for the same crimes, they are much more rarely homeless, they do get more attention (and money) from social services. In divorce cases they more or less automatically get the children and half of the husband's money. They commit suicide much less often, way fewer workplace deaths. They are allowed to vote but not subject to the draft.

bayesianhorse 11y ago
Still they make less money, bear the cost/burden of child birth, are more likely to care for children, are more likely to be physically abused by their partners, more likely to be killed by their partner, and the list probably goes on...
- NotableAlamode 11y ago
  Still they make less money, Wrong, they make more money for the same work. bear the cost/burden of child birth, With modern contraception tech, children is a lifestyle choice, like playing golf, a lifestyle choice they mostly volunteer for. are more likely to care for children, That's a lifestyle choice that they mostly enjoy. Child rearing is best seen as a long-term paid for holiday. are more likely to be physically abused by their partners, Men are are more likely to be emotionally abused by their partners, and emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse. Moreover, men don't complain so much physical abuse of men is not reported. more likely to be killed by their partner, The majority of all murder victims are men.

TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago

That's not what the parent was saying at all. Would you be so kind as to explain how you came to this interpretation?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

iopq 11y ago

In the United States women are born with extra rights such as: 1. Intact genitalia - males don't have this right 2. The right to vote and receive financial aid - males only receive these benefits if they sign up for Selective Service 3. The right to choose parenthood - males have to pay for a child even if they don't want to. Women can choose to give up their child for adoption. A male can not choose not to be a parent.

shoo 11y ago
> A male can not choose not to be a parent. How about getting a vasectomy? That'd probably do the trick.
- NotableAlamode 11y ago
  Vasectomy is not 100% reliable. Even after a successful vasectomy about 1 in 2,000 men will become fertile again at some point in the future. Moreover, having to engage in genital mutilation so as to avoid being tricked/lied/forced into fatherhood is hardly progressive.
  - arrrg 11y ago
    A biological difference leads to different options for different genders. (The delineation isn’t even strictly along gender lines, though, since this only applies to people who can become pregnant. Most of those are women, sure, but many women cannot become pregnant, for example.) If you value bodily autonomy (which I really hope you do – otherwise this discussion is kind of pointless) the only person who can decide what happens with their own body is the actual pregnant person – and no one else. This consequently means that we can only put this decision into their hands. It’s a function of the biological difference. I mean, misogynist assholes like to bang on and on and on about biological differences (most often referring to things we don’t even really know are biological differences) and how those make it imperative to treat genders differently – but here we have a crystal clear example of a biological difference leading to different options for different people – and suddenly that’s no ok?

makomk 11y ago

Long story short: feminists won't consider men and women equal until women are not worse off than men in any area, and will accuse anyone who tries to fix the areas where men are worse off of misogyny. This will never lead to equality, no matter who has more rights now. All the arguing about whether "women have more rights than men" is part of the problem, and that applies to both sides.

NotableAlamode 11y ago
All the arguing about whether "women have more rights than men" is part of the problem Why?