4 ms·

This is to be expected from a field which is traditionally male-dominated. Personally I don't think gender matters at all - it is great to want to give exposure

by csvan 11y ago

This is to be expected from a field which is traditionally male-dominated. Personally I don't think gender matters at all - it is great to want to give exposure to minorities, but people should be valued for their skill, not genitalia.

TheAceOfHearts 11y ago
Heck, I've been following @sebmck for months, and I just thought he was a cat for the longest time...
richmarr 11y ago
With respect, you're flat wrong here. The consequences of this kind of thing are serious for our industry. This is to be expected... Software isn't a 100% male field; maybe 80-90% in my experience. That means: (a) This list is missing great people, e.g. @ErisDS who was the lead engineer (now CTO) for the Ghost blogging platform (b) This list is thoughtlessly unsupportive of the minority 10-20% in terms of role models. What's the effect of women being constantly portrayed as an underclass of developer by the lack of profile given to successful female devs? Personally I don't think gender matters at all That's exactly what someone who hasn't experienced any gender-related workplace problems would think. This utopian finger-in-ears attitude ignores the reality of the harrassment and the systemic uphill battle female devs face in terms of diminishing remarks ("Oh, you must be the designer") and community bias (events typically provide beer & pizza & mens t-shirts). It's okay, you may not know about all this stuff, or have thought about it from that perspective. I'm inviting you to level up. It's time.
- paulcole 11y ago
  Thanks, you said this about a million times better than I did.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Thanks. Although it seems I didn't say it well enough :/
  - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
    I'm surprised that you thought your off-topic trolling was saying anything well, but berating someone based on bad assumptions made from 2 sentences is certainly not saying it any better.
- WorldWideWayne 11y ago
  > I'm inviting you to level up. It's time. Appeal to authority noted. You think you know better than csvan, but without any real arguments, you resort to using moral platitudes that you think speak to the crowd. csvan said "a field which is traditionally male-dominated.". You agreed with this yourself by stating that Software is 80-90% male in your experience. Then he followed up with an opinion, stating "I don't think gender matters at all". This was followed by more opinions about what he thinks people should do. So we've established that what you consider "flat wrong" is actually more like "Your one fact is correct, but I disagree with your opinion". Let's bask in the sunlight of agreement for just a moment before moving onto the statement that ultimately drew your ire. Personally I don't think gender matters at all I wonder if you'd have gone on this rant if csvan had said "Personally, gender doesn't matter to me at all..." or "Personally, I don't think gender should matter at all..." because I'm 90% positive that the latter is what he meant to convey. And he's correct. And you agree with him. Gender shouldn't matter at all and people should be valued for their skills instead of their genitalia. Perhaps you would have learned that by having a conversation or thinking about it some more, but you chose to attack instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt. So, have a downvote. You deserve it.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Okay, let's start from the top. @csvan: This is to be expected from a field which is traditionally male-dominated. An attempt to justify why there are zero women listed (despite women making up 10-20%). @csvan: Personally I don't think gender matters at all Sure, you could interpret this either as a statement of not-yet-reached ideal or as a statement of eyes-closed naivity. Considering he opened with a rationalisation, a statement of assumed meritocracy, I chose the interpretation that fit. You chose the other one for some reason, which is fine. @csvan: it is great to want to give exposure to minorities, but people should be valued for their skill, not genitalia. It's a common position, but dropping it into this discussion implies that positive discrimination is required in order to list any women on that page, that there are none who deserve to be there. Again, this chimes with my interpretation of "I don't think gender matters", not yours. @WorldWideWayne: And he's correct. And you agree with him. The only thing he said that I agree with is that this is a male-dominated field, and even then, he's implying that women are rare enough to have not produced anyone worthy of high profile. Which isn't true. @WorldWideWayne: Gender shouldn't matter at all... Sure, when we get to that world we can have this conversation again. Back in reality, the playing field isn't flat yet so any talk of meritocracy is based on false assumptions. @WorldWideWayne: So, have a downvote. You deserve it. Uh huh. For criticising his comments rather than holding hands in a prayer circle? For using a couple of rhetorical devices? By your rules I'm pretty sure you should give yourself a downvote. I wonder if you'd have gone on this rant is I hadn't suggested @csvan "level up". Or maybe it's because you agree with him that we're already in a meritocracy. You've been pretty reticent about your actual opinions.

by csvan 11y ago

TheAceOfHearts 11y ago

Heck, I've been following @sebmck for months, and I just thought he was a cat for the longest time...

richmarr 11y ago

With respect, you're flat wrong here. The consequences of this kind of thing are serious for our industry. This is to be expected... Software isn't a 100% male field; maybe 80-90% in my experience. That means: (a) This list is missing great people, e.g. @ErisDS who was the lead engineer (now CTO) for the Ghost blogging platform (b) This list is thoughtlessly unsupportive of the minority 10-20% in terms of role models. What's the effect of women being constantly portrayed as an underclass of developer by the lack of profile given to successful female devs? Personally I don't think gender matters at all That's exactly what someone who hasn't experienced any gender-related workplace problems would think. This utopian finger-in-ears attitude ignores the reality of the harrassment and the systemic uphill battle female devs face in terms of diminishing remarks ("Oh, you must be the designer") and community bias (events typically provide beer & pizza & mens t-shirts). It's okay, you may not know about all this stuff, or have thought about it from that perspective. I'm inviting you to level up. It's time.

paulcole 11y ago
Thanks, you said this about a million times better than I did.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Thanks. Although it seems I didn't say it well enough :/
- WorldWideWayne 11y ago
  I'm surprised that you thought your off-topic trolling was saying anything well, but berating someone based on bad assumptions made from 2 sentences is certainly not saying it any better.
WorldWideWayne 11y ago
> I'm inviting you to level up. It's time. Appeal to authority noted. You think you know better than csvan, but without any real arguments, you resort to using moral platitudes that you think speak to the crowd. csvan said "a field which is traditionally male-dominated.". You agreed with this yourself by stating that Software is 80-90% male in your experience. Then he followed up with an opinion, stating "I don't think gender matters at all". This was followed by more opinions about what he thinks people should do. So we've established that what you consider "flat wrong" is actually more like "Your one fact is correct, but I disagree with your opinion". Let's bask in the sunlight of agreement for just a moment before moving onto the statement that ultimately drew your ire. Personally I don't think gender matters at all I wonder if you'd have gone on this rant if csvan had said "Personally, gender doesn't matter to me at all..." or "Personally, I don't think gender should matter at all..." because I'm 90% positive that the latter is what he meant to convey. And he's correct. And you agree with him. Gender shouldn't matter at all and people should be valued for their skills instead of their genitalia. Perhaps you would have learned that by having a conversation or thinking about it some more, but you chose to attack instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt. So, have a downvote. You deserve it.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Okay, let's start from the top. @csvan: This is to be expected from a field which is traditionally male-dominated. An attempt to justify why there are zero women listed (despite women making up 10-20%). @csvan: Personally I don't think gender matters at all Sure, you could interpret this either as a statement of not-yet-reached ideal or as a statement of eyes-closed naivity. Considering he opened with a rationalisation, a statement of assumed meritocracy, I chose the interpretation that fit. You chose the other one for some reason, which is fine. @csvan: it is great to want to give exposure to minorities, but people should be valued for their skill, not genitalia. It's a common position, but dropping it into this discussion implies that positive discrimination is required in order to list any women on that page, that there are none who deserve to be there. Again, this chimes with my interpretation of "I don't think gender matters", not yours. @WorldWideWayne: And he's correct. And you agree with him. The only thing he said that I agree with is that this is a male-dominated field, and even then, he's implying that women are rare enough to have not produced anyone worthy of high profile. Which isn't true. @WorldWideWayne: Gender shouldn't matter at all... Sure, when we get to that world we can have this conversation again. Back in reality, the playing field isn't flat yet so any talk of meritocracy is based on false assumptions. @WorldWideWayne: So, have a downvote. You deserve it. Uh huh. For criticising his comments rather than holding hands in a prayer circle? For using a couple of rhetorical devices? By your rules I'm pretty sure you should give yourself a downvote. I wonder if you'd have gone on this rant is I hadn't suggested @csvan "level up". Or maybe it's because you agree with him that we're already in a meritocracy. You've been pretty reticent about your actual opinions.