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I went to two of the top 5 CS schools in the US for undergrad and grad. As a current web dev, it was a total waste of time as far as helping me be useful in the

I went to two of the top 5 CS schools in the US for undergrad and grad. As a current web dev, it was a total waste of time as far as helping me be useful in the industry. It gave me some street cred on my resume with bigcorp & people who don't know how to recruit, but that was about it. I ended up learning most of what I needed on my own, and not through a formal structure such as that of a university. I still frequently go back to the same texts we used in class, but I get a lot more from them now that I actually have a pragmatic need for that knowledge, as opposed to cramming something really abstract into my skull in 3 months. I'm sure academia would have been a lot more useful if I really needed specialized knowledge in some specific area. Even then I doubt I wouldn't have been able to teach myself everything, or find someone who could. I did get a lot out of team projects though, those were the closest I got to real-world-like experience of working in teams. Software engineering is a craft. At some point we need to ask ourselves if we aren't served much better by turning our education into craft schools / apprenticeships etc. over the current awkward model of trying to stuff vocational training into academician-training programs that were never meant for that in the first place. A program like Digipen/Guildhall or some well executed long-term bootcamp is fairly in line with what would work best for creating productive industry contributors. I remember one of my program directors being very clear about it: "We don't make software engineers, we make computer scientists who can go into research". I don't think that part is ever obvious to people going into CS programs.

vezycash 11y ago
"We don't make software engineers, we make computer scientists who can go into research". I don't think that part is ever obvious to people going into CS programs. It wasn't to me. The frustration I felt for 4 years is beyond belief. I couldn't stand any longer in my fourth year. Stupid for dropping out at the 9th hour. Now I wonder why companies aren't pushing for programming over the science.
- BadassFractal 11y ago
  The claim you always hear is that "people with a CS background have much stronger fundamentals". I question that claim and believe that people perpetrating the meme have never actually hired and mentored software engineers themselves. There's in my experience very little correlation between being academically great and being highly productive in an unstructured environment such as that of an early stage startup. In fact if you didn't go to school, and still managed to learn a ton about your craft and the underlying principles, I'm much more impressed.
  - fleitz 11y ago
    Couldn't agree more, every time I'm asked to invert a binary tree in an interview I wonder exactly what kinds of problems this company is actually solving. Like do they not have a general algorithm for this in a library? Are they looking for more efficient ways of inverting trees?
greyskull 11y ago
CS is not Software Engineering, and should be treated as such. People who do nothing but coursework will be lousy developers, and people who don't get a proper CS instruction will have a harder time becoming proper software engineers. The problem is, getting a CS degree is by far the most major and common option available. Considering the number of people diving into CS to become programmers, I wish there was a bigger focus on _software engineering_. My program was lackluster from a development perspective. No real projects, the coding-centric courses all had really poor execution, and a lack of instruction on how to actually program and design; however it was excellent for CS fundamentals and foundation. I ended up okay because I spent a lot of time in internships and just learning on my own, which balanced out with the abstract stuff from school, but I witnessed quite a few people graduating who could barely understand how to work with APIs. EDIT: Just to add some background: I graduated last fall, got into one of the top popular major software companies in the U.S., and reaffirmed that the 4.5 years I spent getting my degree did not seem worth the time spent. It wasn't a complete waste; the foundation is really important for software engineering, but there was a lot of cruft and "took a class because of requirements" that went on.
eljimmy 11y ago
I share a similar mindset, but I think the entire point of it is to say "Hey, I'm capable" to employers. They want to know that you are an intelligent and competent problem solver.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
If all you ever wanted to be was a webdev, you shouldn't have gotten a cs degree, just like if all you ever wanted to do was be an electrician you shouldn't have bothered with the EE major.
robotresearcher 11y ago
> it was a total waste of time but > I still frequently go back to the same texts we used in class, but I get a lot more from them now that I actually have a pragmatic need for that knowledge So you knew that there was something useful you could know about, and you knew where to find the information, and you were able to comprehend and absorb and use it. So not a total waste of time. In fact, pretty much exactly the point of tertiary education.
- BadassFractal 11y ago
  I'd argue that knowing where to look up information is not worth a couple of hundred thousand $ and half a decade in a classroom. As I mentioned, most of my comprehension was from learning about things on my own, not because someone in the faculty explained it to me. In fact, it was really difficult to get any kind of mentorship at these schools, given how all instructors were researchers who always seemed very unhappy having to teach courses.
  - blahblah3 11y ago
    college is definitely too expensive and few would pay that much money just for the info gained from coursework (any of the coursework...not just cs). it also seems counterproductive that society expects everybody to go to college. unfortunately nowadays college is more about providing a network + campus recruiting opportunities + some qualification on a resume.
blahblah3 11y ago
I always feel like I'm in a tiny minority when reading people talk about the practical irrelevance of cs coursework at universities. I loved learning the theoretical aspects of cs, discrete math and algorithms, compilers, using haskell, proving stuff... But I think I would be a bad to mediocre programmer in the real world (ended up doing something different)
- BadassFractal 11y ago
  All of that stuff is very useful, but you don't need to be in school to learn it. Dipping into the theory doesn't suddenly stop once you get out of school, in fact it should accelerate.
  - rifung 11y ago
    Maybe my experience is unusual but I've found the opposite to be true. Since leaving school I have very rarely had to use theory or refer back to it. I still learn more but that's only because I find it interesting and I only do it in my spare time.

vezycash 11y ago

"We don't make software engineers, we make computer scientists who can go into research". I don't think that part is ever obvious to people going into CS programs. It wasn't to me. The frustration I felt for 4 years is beyond belief. I couldn't stand any longer in my fourth year. Stupid for dropping out at the 9th hour. Now I wonder why companies aren't pushing for programming over the science.

BadassFractal 11y ago
The claim you always hear is that "people with a CS background have much stronger fundamentals". I question that claim and believe that people perpetrating the meme have never actually hired and mentored software engineers themselves. There's in my experience very little correlation between being academically great and being highly productive in an unstructured environment such as that of an early stage startup. In fact if you didn't go to school, and still managed to learn a ton about your craft and the underlying principles, I'm much more impressed.
- fleitz 11y ago
  Couldn't agree more, every time I'm asked to invert a binary tree in an interview I wonder exactly what kinds of problems this company is actually solving. Like do they not have a general algorithm for this in a library? Are they looking for more efficient ways of inverting trees?

greyskull 11y ago

CS is not Software Engineering, and should be treated as such. People who do nothing but coursework will be lousy developers, and people who don't get a proper CS instruction will have a harder time becoming proper software engineers. The problem is, getting a CS degree is by far the most major and common option available. Considering the number of people diving into CS to become programmers, I wish there was a bigger focus on _software engineering_. My program was lackluster from a development perspective. No real projects, the coding-centric courses all had really poor execution, and a lack of instruction on how to actually program and design; however it was excellent for CS fundamentals and foundation. I ended up okay because I spent a lot of time in internships and just learning on my own, which balanced out with the abstract stuff from school, but I witnessed quite a few people graduating who could barely understand how to work with APIs. EDIT: Just to add some background: I graduated last fall, got into one of the top popular major software companies in the U.S., and reaffirmed that the 4.5 years I spent getting my degree did not seem worth the time spent. It wasn't a complete waste; the foundation is really important for software engineering, but there was a lot of cruft and "took a class because of requirements" that went on.

eljimmy 11y ago

I share a similar mindset, but I think the entire point of it is to say "Hey, I'm capable" to employers. They want to know that you are an intelligent and competent problem solver.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

If all you ever wanted to be was a webdev, you shouldn't have gotten a cs degree, just like if all you ever wanted to do was be an electrician you shouldn't have bothered with the EE major.

robotresearcher 11y ago

> it was a total waste of time but > I still frequently go back to the same texts we used in class, but I get a lot more from them now that I actually have a pragmatic need for that knowledge So you knew that there was something useful you could know about, and you knew where to find the information, and you were able to comprehend and absorb and use it. So not a total waste of time. In fact, pretty much exactly the point of tertiary education.

BadassFractal 11y ago
I'd argue that knowing where to look up information is not worth a couple of hundred thousand $ and half a decade in a classroom. As I mentioned, most of my comprehension was from learning about things on my own, not because someone in the faculty explained it to me. In fact, it was really difficult to get any kind of mentorship at these schools, given how all instructors were researchers who always seemed very unhappy having to teach courses.
- blahblah3 11y ago
  college is definitely too expensive and few would pay that much money just for the info gained from coursework (any of the coursework...not just cs). it also seems counterproductive that society expects everybody to go to college. unfortunately nowadays college is more about providing a network + campus recruiting opportunities + some qualification on a resume.

blahblah3 11y ago

I always feel like I'm in a tiny minority when reading people talk about the practical irrelevance of cs coursework at universities. I loved learning the theoretical aspects of cs, discrete math and algorithms, compilers, using haskell, proving stuff... But I think I would be a bad to mediocre programmer in the real world (ended up doing something different)

BadassFractal 11y ago
All of that stuff is very useful, but you don't need to be in school to learn it. Dipping into the theory doesn't suddenly stop once you get out of school, in fact it should accelerate.
- rifung 11y ago
  Maybe my experience is unusual but I've found the opposite to be true. Since leaving school I have very rarely had to use theory or refer back to it. I still learn more but that's only because I find it interesting and I only do it in my spare time.