11 ms·
Dune, 50 years on
- brudgers 11y agoDune shared the 1965 Hugo for Best Novel with Roger Zelazny's This Immortal...which says something about how good Zelazny's work is despite its relative obscurity (compared with Dune).
- 100k 11y agoThis Immortal is terrific. And Zelazany in general. Dune and Lord of Light (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light) are a few of the only SF books I re-read on a regular basis.
- Pamar 11y agoSeconded - Lord of Light is really awesome (and just as politically nuanced as Dune, but with better characters, IMO)
- saalweachter 11y agoNo love for Creatures of Light and Darkness?
- Pamar 11y agoWell, I read both, but LoL made a bigger impression on me. To be honest I found CoLaD too much "experimentalist" for my taste (I read both when I was much younger, so it probably went over my head, while LoL I reread and enjoyed through subsequently rereadings).
- kepano 11y agoY'all have seen Jodorowsky's Dune, right? This documentary changed my life: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/reference http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/reference
- DyingAdonis 11y agoThank the maker that movie never got made.
- rdtsc 11y agoI saw that movie, I thought it was very good. Just curious, what did you like about it that it changed your life. Did you mean the how it was shot (i.e. impressed by director's work), Jodorowsky as a person, his story how he worked on Dune with other people (the complexity, dedication, the obsession), or Dune itself? I found interesting how Dune influenced all these other blockbusters that came after, most importantly Star Wars. It was also fascinating how Jodorowsky never actually read Dune. EDIT: that is not correct as someone pointed out by Nemcue, I (and others apparently) misremembered. It was both the financier, Michel Seydoux and the illustrator Chris Foss who hadn't read it. Or say, why anyone thought Jodorowsky, based on his previous track record of making surrealist films, would be a good candidate to make Dune. I just don't see the obvious connection from "Holly Mountain" to blockbuster "Sci Fi" for the masses. Now, of course in a funny twist, David Lynch, another surrealist author, actually made the American (Universal Studios) version, and it was terrible I thought.
- Nemcue 11y ago"It was also fascinating how Jodorowsky never actually read Dune." It's so bizarre how people keep saying this, because you're far from being the first; like you all fell asleep during the exact same segment. He _did_ read the book. He clearly says so in the documentary. He hadn't read the book before he got the go-ahead from the producer.
- rdtsc 11y agoThanks for pointing that out. I misremembered. Edited my comment accordingly.
- pyre 11y ago> I found interesting how Dune influenced all these other blockbusters that came after, most importantly Star Wars. Didn't it bring Geiger to the attention of Ridley Scott (Geiger's art sets the ascetic for Alien and its sequels)?
- camperman 11y ago"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the second world war," Which it isn't, as Tolkien makes clear in the foreward.
- revscat 11y agoI'm not sure I agree with Tolkien on this front. Yes, I know: I'm disagreeing with an author's assessment of his own work. But authors are necessarily a part of their environment. It is -- literally -- inescapable. The good Professor was directly involved in the first World War, and the second was at his doorstep. His aversion to modernity could have led to him simply denying a a conscious connection between those real world epics and those created by his own mind. But the works themselves put doubt to his claim. If we take him only at his word, and stop there, then that is the end of it. But if we recognize the imperfect ways we self-assess, well...
- ende 11y agoWhat Tolkien was largely dismissing is the notion that his world was a direct allegory. He readily acknowledges that the comraderie and sacrifice he experienced in the trenches of WWI manifests itself in Frodo and his companions, as well as the doomed but defiant determination of the people of England/Gondor in the face of assured destruction, etc. So there are themes that bind the two worlds but he was adamantntly dismissive of any direct mappings (ie Germany as Mordoe or whatever). Really LotR is about mortality and power.
- johnchristopher 11y agoI am pretty sure there is a passage in the Carter's biography where he clearly states that people drawing parallels between Sauron and Hitler or the West vs the East are idiots.
- ajslater 11y agoI believe Tolkien directly said it was about mortality, and that power was a sideshow to move the plot along. The power of the ring is primarily to delay the inevitable and it corrupts all who cannot accept that.
- dejv 11y agoDune was first scifi book I read at age of 12 and reread couple of times. Other scifi of the era was all about spaceships, colonies and what so ever. I still love these classics from gold era of sci-fi, but Dune is different, it is still relevant and don't age at all. It is all about "religion" fundamentalism, movement/revolution creation and philosophy. Really great book, highly recommend.
- contingencies 11y agoFor the kids: though technically the RTS genre existed earlier in one or two games, it was essentially nearly singlehandedly popularized by Dune II: The Building of a Dynasty. The graphics and sound, probably inspired by the Amiga, were awesome in the era! So many elements of modern RTS were already present: multiple civilizations, each with specialist unit types. Level-oriented progression. Resource harvesting. Terrain types. Unit speed as a key differentiator. High level weapons with the capacity for massive remote destruction. NPCs on the map. See the intro video on Youtube @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4sj2Rf1RFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4sj2Rf1RFg
- ekianjo 11y agoErm. Let's not forget Dune the adventure game by Cryo as well, which was some kind of Adventure game mixed with real time strategy in the later parts of the game. Very well done.
- veli_joza 11y agoThere's also another fantastic game inspired by Dune, an older turn-based strategy game called Emperor of the Fading Suns. The game's religion system, power struggle between noble houses, along with mix of tribal themes and space technology creates a strong Dune-like ambience.
- jon-wood 11y agoThat was the first non-platform game I really got into (before reading the books even), and I don't think anything since has managed to do strategy quite so well, with its blend of RTS and actual democracy in meeting others and negotiating with them.
- gommm 11y agoYes, it's the highlight of Cryo's output. Everything from this game is great from the music by Stephane Picq to the mixture of adventure game, trading and strategy. Lost Eden follows a similar concept but it's nowhere as good. Dune 2 by Westwood which came out around the same time was also very innovative for the time and is really the father of all RTS.
- JoshTriplett 11y agoI thoroughly enjoyed Dune. It had an interesting story, set in an even more interesting world. However, it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel; other books in the series not only don't measure up, but actively undermine what made the original interesting. It's possible that other good stories could have been written in that universe, but they weren't. I highly recommend reading only the original.
- veli_joza 11y agoThe first book is black-and-white affair, the rise of an underdog hero. It takes few more sequels to paint a much bigger picture warning about dangers of religion fundamentalism and about placing burden of leadership on single person. In the end I also like the first book the best, but sequels are also worthwhile to read.
- jwdunne 11y agoI also think it undermines the ending, which is probably one of the best endings I've ever read, which ties everything together rapidly so you have to re-read the past few paragraphs again. I remember thinking "woah". The start of the book is maybe a bit slow but it does pick up pace rapidly after a point. The best advice I got was to just push on, I'll understand why later. I don't regret it.
- proofofconcept 11y agoWhich (if any) of the Dune sequels are "good" is one of those Kirk vs. Pickard or Joel vs. Mike caliber sci-fi debates that gets unreasonably heated since people get very attached to their opinions on creative works that resonate with them on a personal level. (For the record, I don't really like the first two sequels but I really really love the 3rd-5th sequels; I realize it's a big ask of new readers to get that far just on my say-so though.)
- JoshTriplett 11y ago> For the record, I don't really like the first two sequels but I really really love the 3rd-5th sequels I'll admit to not having gotten that far; two bad sequels was enough for me to give up.
- proofofconcept 11y agoI've heard people say they find inspiration in the Litany Against Fear (Fear is the mind-killer...) but I prefer the stripped-down version introduced in the 5th sequel: "Face your fears or they will climb over your back."
- veli_joza 11y agoAnother TV adaptation worth mentioning is SyFy's miniseries "Frank Herbert's Dune" and "Frank Herbert's Children of Dune". They are much more faithful to books than Lynch's movie and better show the epic universe that Herbert imagined.
- anotherevan 11y agoI really disliked the that Dune miniseries[1]. There was some really awful acting and very cheap looking sets through a lot of it. I also thought they got the tone of Paul's character completely wrong. To me he came across starting off as an arrogant thug whereas my perception of him from the books was a very thoughtful if not perhaps demonstratively emotive young man. (Obviously subjective viewpoint, but it put me off right from the start.) OTOH, the audiobook produced by Audible I thought was very good. I've probably read the book four or five times, the last time well over a decade ago. I listened to the audiobook recently and really enjoyed it and reminded me how much I liked the first book[2]. [1] Have not seen the Children of Dune miniseries. [2] I'm in the "first book was good, the rest was crap" camp. I read through 'til about halfway through Heretics of Dune before asking myself why I was still reading and stopped.
- rodgerd 11y ago> my perception of him from the books was a very thoughtful if not perhaps demonstratively emotive young man. I would say that Paul was throughtful, but very emotive - remember the lecture about mood being a thing for cattle? - and not keen enough on acting initially.
- aikah 11y agoI took it as "filmed theater" rather than a movie. Aside from William Hurt, all actors are playing their roles, not "acting". So if you see it that way it's enjoyable. Everything is theatric, from the costumes to the dialogs, it doesn't really feel like a movie at all. I prefer this to Lynch's film which has great costumes and design but you can't tell Dune in less than 2 hours, like one cannot tell lord of the rings in one movie. However,there is certainly room for a real trilogy movie. I'm sure it will happen in the next 10 years.
- iwwr 11y agoDune is a fine work and stands on its own pretty well, but Kunzru gets fixated on the first one and misses out on the depth of the latter books. The first 3 (including Dune) explore the Muad'Dib's rise to power and his new imperial system, book 4 is his son's very long reign and books 5-6 explore the dissolution of that system over the centuries. The story arc spans thousands of years. The central theme as I'd see it is the domination of humans by 'oracles' -- creatures with access to resources that dominate by both predicting and shaping the future. Paul Atreides is not merely a "white man who fulfils a persistent colonial fantasy", he didn't arrive in a vacuum. Fremen culture has been shaped by the oracles, their religion, traditions and prophecies were planted to suit the aims of the oracles. Paul recognized first that Dune is not merely a central position worth holding, but _the_ source of power in that universe, control over Dune means control over the universe. So it's very much a story of hydraulic despotism, of the natural resource curse. How do you break the curse? Herbert's answer is 'technology'. Technology created the problem but it's also ultimately the solution.
- Flenser 11y ago> he central theme as I'd see it is the domination of humans by 'oracles' That is exactly what Herbert set out to write. In his own words: > I conceived of a long novel, the whole trilogy as one book about the messianic convulsions that periodically overtake us. Demagogues, fanatics, con-game artists, the innocent and the not-so-innocent bystanders-all were to have a part in the drama. This grows from my theory that superheroes are disastrous for humankind. Even if we find a real hero (whatever-or whoever-that may be), eventually fallible mortals take over the power structure that always comes into being around such a leader. > Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster. From Dune Genesis by Frank Herbert: http://moodleshare.org/mod/page/view.php?id=2453 http://moodleshare.org/mod/page/view.php?id=2453
- isoos 11y agoThose who want to learn more about Dune and Frank Herbert, I strongly suggest to read Tim O'Reilly's interview / autobiography book: http://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/ http://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/ I am a long-time Dune fan, and this book and the background information it provides makes me read it and Dune again, and again.
- klunger 11y agoI thought it odd that the article did not mention the SciFi mini-series Dune and Children of Dune that came out a while back [1][2]. These were actually quite good, much better than the David Lynch version. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/ [2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/?ref_=tt_rec_tt http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/?ref_=tt_rec_tt
- rodgerd 11y ago"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the second world war" - well, no it isn't. "Actually, the great Dune film did get made. Its name is Star Wars." This would be a better essay if I could take it seriously.
- yeureka 11y agoDune is one of my favourite books and I actually enjoyed David Lynch's film. I would love to see a modern cinema adaptation, but with the current political climate it might be impossible to make a movie about a messiah leading religious fanatics on a jihad against an empire for control of the commodity on which all civilization is dependent.
- a8da6b0c91d 11y agoMost classic sci-fi is deeply anti-liberal. Liberal utopian stuff like Star Trek is the exception. Dune is loaded with implicit acceptance of aristocracy and religion.
- ewzimm 11y agoHerbert said his whole point in writing Dune was to criticize the tendency of people to rely on Messianic figures for salvation, to show how our reliance on charismatic heroes and saviors can destroy us. Ironically, there's so much propaganda in favor of these things in fiction that most people read his criticisms as support. He also wanted to explore the idea that reading about characters who operate with advanced levels of consciousness might inspire readers to expand their own thinking, especially into thinking about long-term consequences on our environment, to get people to think about living more sustainably as neo-peasants, which he attempted to do himself. So the characters are meant to be inspiring, but their flaws ar meant to be obvious enough that we can avoid the mistakes they make while thinking more broadly and surpassing them.
- ableal 11y agoThe writer missed one of the most interesting points of the Dune future history: it is one that rejected machine intelligence, and relies only on human abilities (however augmented by training, drugs and mystical handwaving). The original Dune books mentioned, as part of the past, a war against AIs called the Butlerian Jihad, which humans somehow won. Frank Herbert's son later wrote it up in three prequel books. This is very much against the grain of 1960s and later SF, which, when not ignoring the issue, largely developed into a range of AI friendly views going from blithely assuming machine submission (most SF) up to admitting that humans would be the amusing pets of AIs (e.g. Iain M. Banks and Neal Asher). On the hostile side, there were dystopian stories that posited human persecution and extermination by machines, but I can't remember off-hand another major SF setting where AI was achieved and beaten back.
- jon-wood 11y agoThe shunning of computers is probably the aspect I found most interesting at first. Are the Butlerian Jihad books actually any good? I'd love to read more about it, but I don't want to ruin my love of the universe with some shoddy fan fiction, even if it is written by Herbert's son.
- tunap 11y agoI read one BH/KJA book and it's name/content is not worthy of recollection. Horrible, fourth grade reading level stuff, IMO. The Butlerian Jihad was very intriguing to me, as well. As a youth I found it hard to imagine such extremes that would bring about such a rejection of technology and it's benefits. At 45yo, however, I find the drawbacks of modern systems have become too 'costly' to my person and am embarking upon my own cleansing of over-bearing, insinuating devices in my life. Cupertino, Redmond or Mt. View(any Corp, for that matter) will never be allowed to become my masters, my moocher bff nor my nanny beyond a static, transactional relationship. Despite what the marketeers would have me believe, they are doing me no favors entrenching further dependence to their systems. Long live the fighters!
- walterbell 11y ago
- bigohk 11y agoIt is interesting indeed but the best Sci Fi fiction work in my view is Hyperion.
- octygen 11y agoDune and the Foundation series are by far my favorite SF series. The reason? Both have unparalleled universe depth. To today I still recite the Dune fear prayer to myself once in a while, I still think about how the Foundationeers used technology as a means to control the Galaxy after the fall of the Empire, I still think of spice as several natural resources on Earth today, etc. I believe all the books in the Dune series are valuable and even enjoyed the prequels since they gave a background to the story that was just lightly touched in the originals. For me, they completed the Universe and helped me answer the "Why did they do/think...?" P.S. The Dune 1 game also ruled! It was the first game on my 486 and boy did it help me get a lot of ladies :)
- swagv 11y agoI enjoyed Dune, but it has much to do with software/hacking as installing a kitchen garbage disposal.
- jhallenworld 11y agoCheck out the Destination: Void series (but start with The Jesus Incident). Inspiration for Avatar and similar.