4 ms·

It makes sense that US Intelligence is spying on foreign entities -- that's their job. Foreign entities are not protected by the US constitution and are not cov

It makes sense that US Intelligence is spying on foreign entities -- that's their job. Foreign entities are not protected by the US constitution and are not covered by the Fourth Amendment and have no right to privacy from the NSA, CIA, etc.

richmarr 11y ago
According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. In other news, foreigners don't look to the US constitution before deciding whether to be cross about being spied on.
- user 11y ago
  >According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. Legal scholars disagree with you: http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...
  - csandreasen 11y ago
    Reading through that paper, it seems pretty clear that the author is discussing the rights of foreigners inside the US. The idea that the US should be upholding US constitutional rights for non-US citizens residing in another country's sovereign territory is not something that legal scholars are arguing.
    - user 11y ago
      I posted paper to answer blatant "according to Constitution foreigners don't have any rights at all". Regarding other countries - they obviously have their own bills, laws and regulations. The idea that US citizens residing in other countries are exempt from local laws just on the basis that they are doing service to US is ridiculous.
      - richmarr 11y ago
        ... blatant... rediculous... You seem to be arguing against an assertion I never made. Not sure what to clarify. Maybe I wasn't clear somewhere, or maybe you've taken something out of context, I don't know. Might help to go read the thread from the top. Let me know if you can't figure out where our wires got crossed and I'll try and clarify.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. Only if you read things like "no person" (as in, among other places, the Fifth Amendment) to mean "no citizen", which isn't what the text says, isn't likely what was intended by the original authors, and isn't how legal scholars or courts have interpreted the language since its been written. Now, there are rights in the Constitution that belong to citizens as such rather than persons in general, such as voting rights protected under, among other provisions, the 15th Amendment. But to say that foreigners don't have any rights under the Constitution is incorrect.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Only if you read things like "no person"... We're talking about foreign nationals on foreign soil.
jmcmichael 11y ago
> It makes sense that US Intelligence is spying on foreign entities -- that's their job. By your own standards the NSA by isn't doing their job, as they have been shown to be spying on US entities.[1] > Foreign entities are not protected by the US constitution and are not covered by the Fourth Amendment and have no right to privacy from the NSA, CIA, etc. The strongest justification, IMHO, for limiting spying to clear, identifiable enemies of the state that represent real threats - as opposed to blanket, dragnet surveillance of everyone, everywhere - does not come from the Constitution. The strongest argument comes from the basic principle that hypocrisy is bad, and we shouldn't engage in it on a personal or social or governmental level. By surveilling everybody, we lose the moral high ground on which to stand when criticizing the various dictatorships, tyrannies, and theocracies around the world that engage in massive surveillance in order to maintain their power. In short as the world's supreme military power, we owe it to the rest of humanity to do the right thing, act like adults and set a good example. Right now the NSA and the rest of the intelligence community makes our government look like a pack of lying hypocrites. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillance-loophole-americans-data http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillanc...
- themartorana 11y ago
  Yup. And it's simpler even - when China hacks in to Google, we get very, very upset. We puff our chests and Washington goes into a fury with Senators posturing all over the place. Are you kidding me? It's almost comical, the straight face with which they act hurt that a foreign entity is spying on us and intruding in our networks.
  - omarchowdhury 11y ago
    Do as I say, not as I do.
user 11y ago
Regardless of what US laws might or might not say about spying overseas, people and organizations that are operating there are expected to follow local laws. Since Germany doesn't have any provisions that would allow (some) foreigners to spy on German journalists, it's obvious that CIA spying on them is illegal.
agyl 11y ago
By your logic, does China/North Korea stealing data from US companies seems fair? Because we could argue that is also their job.

richmarr 11y ago

According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. In other news, foreigners don't look to the US constitution before deciding whether to be cross about being spied on.

user 11y ago
>According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. Legal scholars disagree with you: http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...
- csandreasen 11y ago
  Reading through that paper, it seems pretty clear that the author is discussing the rights of foreigners inside the US. The idea that the US should be upholding US constitutional rights for non-US citizens residing in another country's sovereign territory is not something that legal scholars are arguing.
  - user 11y ago
    I posted paper to answer blatant "according to Constitution foreigners don't have any rights at all". Regarding other countries - they obviously have their own bills, laws and regulations. The idea that US citizens residing in other countries are exempt from local laws just on the basis that they are doing service to US is ridiculous.
    - richmarr 11y ago
      ... blatant... rediculous... You seem to be arguing against an assertion I never made. Not sure what to clarify. Maybe I wasn't clear somewhere, or maybe you've taken something out of context, I don't know. Might help to go read the thread from the top. Let me know if you can't figure out where our wires got crossed and I'll try and clarify.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> According to the US constitution, foreigners don't have any rights at all. Only if you read things like "no person" (as in, among other places, the Fifth Amendment) to mean "no citizen", which isn't what the text says, isn't likely what was intended by the original authors, and isn't how legal scholars or courts have interpreted the language since its been written. Now, there are rights in the Constitution that belong to citizens as such rather than persons in general, such as voting rights protected under, among other provisions, the 15th Amendment. But to say that foreigners don't have any rights under the Constitution is incorrect.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Only if you read things like "no person"... We're talking about foreign nationals on foreign soil.

jmcmichael 11y ago

> It makes sense that US Intelligence is spying on foreign entities -- that's their job. By your own standards the NSA by isn't doing their job, as they have been shown to be spying on US entities.[1] > Foreign entities are not protected by the US constitution and are not covered by the Fourth Amendment and have no right to privacy from the NSA, CIA, etc. The strongest justification, IMHO, for limiting spying to clear, identifiable enemies of the state that represent real threats - as opposed to blanket, dragnet surveillance of everyone, everywhere - does not come from the Constitution. The strongest argument comes from the basic principle that hypocrisy is bad, and we shouldn't engage in it on a personal or social or governmental level. By surveilling everybody, we lose the moral high ground on which to stand when criticizing the various dictatorships, tyrannies, and theocracies around the world that engage in massive surveillance in order to maintain their power. In short as the world's supreme military power, we owe it to the rest of humanity to do the right thing, act like adults and set a good example. Right now the NSA and the rest of the intelligence community makes our government look like a pack of lying hypocrites. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillance-loophole-americans-data http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillanc...

themartorana 11y ago
Yup. And it's simpler even - when China hacks in to Google, we get very, very upset. We puff our chests and Washington goes into a fury with Senators posturing all over the place. Are you kidding me? It's almost comical, the straight face with which they act hurt that a foreign entity is spying on us and intruding in our networks.
- omarchowdhury 11y ago
  Do as I say, not as I do.

user 11y ago

Regardless of what US laws might or might not say about spying overseas, people and organizations that are operating there are expected to follow local laws. Since Germany doesn't have any provisions that would allow (some) foreigners to spy on German journalists, it's obvious that CIA spying on them is illegal.

agyl 11y ago

By your logic, does China/North Korea stealing data from US companies seems fair? Because we could argue that is also their job.