5 ms·

Ah, a request and a complaint! How did it go, do you think? "Dear Chancellor, Snowden said the Americans spied on our paper and told you our source in your orga

by andreyf 11y ago

Ah, a request and a complaint! How did it go, do you think? "Dear Chancellor, Snowden said the Americans spied on our paper and told you our source in your organization. Could you provide us with some more evidence so that we can make a legal case against them, please?". Even if the Chancellor wanted to pursue American spies, do you think she has enough evidence to prosecute anyone? If you don't want to answer about the chance of conviction, what do you wager the chances of a prosecutor simply bringing a case to a German court are? Fines and settlements negotiated without a case ever being made public is an example of the laws working differently than they do for most. The banking example isn't much like foreign intelligence activity, of course, but it's similar in that powerful organizations' relationships with laws is different than yours or mine.

chinathrow 11y ago
Have you followed what's happening in Germany right now at all? If not, please read up on it, it's worth it. Fines and settlements can be reached for common people too - you can agree not to proceed with litigation and settle out of court. There is nothing wrong with that if both parties agree. Yes, I agree that sometimes it feels wired how the banks are treated, but you and I could settle out of court too if we wish.
- andreyf 11y ago
  Yes, I have, and I've clearly reached a very different understanding. Is there some point you're trying to make, aside from an ad hominem? What would you say are the chances that a prosecutor brings a case against an American for the tip-off about the leaker covered in the article? Stop nitpicking words. Do you really disagree that banks who are negotiating with the IRS or DoJ have a different relationship with the law and prosecutors than the average prosecutee being offered a plea deal? The relationship between legal costs and settlement costs alone makes for a very different game.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    Have you also followed the news, that there is a huge ongoing investigation running within the german government? I am not talking about only that Spiegel incident when I ask if you followed the news. There is a large uproar within the german people about what has been uncovered so far regarding dragnet surveillance, surveillance of politicians and now journalists. I do not know the chances but I do hope that there will be more light what happened between the BND and the NSA. And I also hope that some folks at the BND will be put to jail for what they allowed to happen on german soil. I am not nitpicking words. I do not disagree that banks have a different relationship, no. I see that as well. But I also see and accept that corps as well as private persons can settle out of court. (Thas has nothing to do with a plea deal). Settling out of court mostly is done on private terms, i.e. money or patents or whatever exchanges hands, where I think a plea deal is more about going to jail for less than what would be at risk with a trial.
user 11y ago
>If you don't want to answer about the chance of conviction, what do you wager the chances of a prosecutor simply bringing a case to a German court are? There have been lawsuits against CIA operations in EU before: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/world/europe/05italy.html?...
- andreyf 11y ago
  And rightfully so! I think forcibly kidnapping someone on the streets of Italy is different than an allied intelligence agencies dropping each other tips about leakers.
  - user 11y ago
    Whether allied or not, foreign intelligence agencies spying on German citizens in Germany are unlawful and occasional "help" in the form of informal tips should not make them above the law. NSA should not get preferential treatment over CIA in EU courts and US agencies in general should not get preferential treatment over say China.
    - andreyf 11y ago
      I'm talking about what is, not what should be in some perfect world we have no practical way of achieving. Intelligence agencies are above the law not because they offer tips to each other, but because they have the resources and practice to be careful and not to leave enough evidence to be used to charge anyone. There's also something fundamental to the nature of dealing in information - you can send anonymous tips, or suggest something while maintaining plausible deniability. I'm sure the source here didn't hand German intel a notarized letter saying "I'm John Doe of the CIA and we've been tapping Der Spiegel phones and this dude's definitely their source on the inside".
      - user 11y ago
        Spooks are not gods, it's public's attitude towards them that makes them god-like. German gov't could have started investigation and at least informed Spiegel. They might have found some leads. If not, at least security audit would have made them more aware of threats. Surely the same (hypothetical) entrypoints that NSA/CIA used, could have been used by other organizations or governments. Spiegel covers a lot of international news and certainly has a lot of sources around the world to protect.

by andreyf 11y ago

chinathrow 11y ago

Have you followed what's happening in Germany right now at all? If not, please read up on it, it's worth it. Fines and settlements can be reached for common people too - you can agree not to proceed with litigation and settle out of court. There is nothing wrong with that if both parties agree. Yes, I agree that sometimes it feels wired how the banks are treated, but you and I could settle out of court too if we wish.

andreyf 11y ago
Yes, I have, and I've clearly reached a very different understanding. Is there some point you're trying to make, aside from an ad hominem? What would you say are the chances that a prosecutor brings a case against an American for the tip-off about the leaker covered in the article? Stop nitpicking words. Do you really disagree that banks who are negotiating with the IRS or DoJ have a different relationship with the law and prosecutors than the average prosecutee being offered a plea deal? The relationship between legal costs and settlement costs alone makes for a very different game.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  Have you also followed the news, that there is a huge ongoing investigation running within the german government? I am not talking about only that Spiegel incident when I ask if you followed the news. There is a large uproar within the german people about what has been uncovered so far regarding dragnet surveillance, surveillance of politicians and now journalists. I do not know the chances but I do hope that there will be more light what happened between the BND and the NSA. And I also hope that some folks at the BND will be put to jail for what they allowed to happen on german soil. I am not nitpicking words. I do not disagree that banks have a different relationship, no. I see that as well. But I also see and accept that corps as well as private persons can settle out of court. (Thas has nothing to do with a plea deal). Settling out of court mostly is done on private terms, i.e. money or patents or whatever exchanges hands, where I think a plea deal is more about going to jail for less than what would be at risk with a trial.

user 11y ago

>If you don't want to answer about the chance of conviction, what do you wager the chances of a prosecutor simply bringing a case to a German court are? There have been lawsuits against CIA operations in EU before: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/world/europe/05italy.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/world/europe/05italy.html?...

andreyf 11y ago
And rightfully so! I think forcibly kidnapping someone on the streets of Italy is different than an allied intelligence agencies dropping each other tips about leakers.
- user 11y ago
  Whether allied or not, foreign intelligence agencies spying on German citizens in Germany are unlawful and occasional "help" in the form of informal tips should not make them above the law. NSA should not get preferential treatment over CIA in EU courts and US agencies in general should not get preferential treatment over say China.
  - andreyf 11y ago
    I'm talking about what is, not what should be in some perfect world we have no practical way of achieving. Intelligence agencies are above the law not because they offer tips to each other, but because they have the resources and practice to be careful and not to leave enough evidence to be used to charge anyone. There's also something fundamental to the nature of dealing in information - you can send anonymous tips, or suggest something while maintaining plausible deniability. I'm sure the source here didn't hand German intel a notarized letter saying "I'm John Doe of the CIA and we've been tapping Der Spiegel phones and this dude's definitely their source on the inside".
    - user 11y ago
      Spooks are not gods, it's public's attitude towards them that makes them god-like. German gov't could have started investigation and at least informed Spiegel. They might have found some leads. If not, at least security audit would have made them more aware of threats. Surely the same (hypothetical) entrypoints that NSA/CIA used, could have been used by other organizations or governments. Spiegel covers a lot of international news and certainly has a lot of sources around the world to protect.