4 ms·

I meant it makes sense legally or practically - it's not unheard of that allied intelligence communities cooperate to spy on each other's citizenry. I don't th

by andreyf 11y ago

I meant it makes sense legally or practically - it's not unheard of that allied intelligence communities cooperate to spy on each other's citizenry. I don't think we lose as a Democracy just from the spying alone, but rather what is done with it.

chinathrow 11y ago
Legally? No it does not make sense either legally. It is forbidden by law to spy as a foreign nation on german soil. Hence the upcoming lawsuit.
- andreyf 11y ago
  Not in the sense that intelligence agencies follow every law of every place they operate (does anyone think they do?), but in a more practical sense - there is no legal mechanism for enforcing rules on the IC externally, and while it's not outside of the realm of possibility, I'm not super convinced we need one. What lawsuit? Would you like to wager how likely it is that an American will be convicted? Treating the law as "a list of rules everyone follows or they get in trouble" is a model that works for when you have a state to judge and enforce the rules. It does not work when organizations like powerful nation states are interacting with one another. A similarly non-traditional-law model can be seen in banking, where fines and settlements are often reached without a judicial process.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    Der Spiegel filed a complaint as stated within the article. Not a lawsuit but the start of one. "As a target of the surveillance, SPIEGEL has requested more information from the Chancellery. At the same time, the magazine filed a complaint on Friday with the Federal Public Prosecutor due to suspicion of intelligence agency activity." Fines and settlement by the way are in quite a lot of countries part of an actual judicial process.
    - andreyf 11y ago
      Ah, a request and a complaint! How did it go, do you think? "Dear Chancellor, Snowden said the Americans spied on our paper and told you our source in your organization. Could you provide us with some more evidence so that we can make a legal case against them, please?". Even if the Chancellor wanted to pursue American spies, do you think she has enough evidence to prosecute anyone? If you don't want to answer about the chance of conviction, what do you wager the chances of a prosecutor simply bringing a case to a German court are? Fines and settlements negotiated without a case ever being made public is an example of the laws working differently than they do for most. The banking example isn't much like foreign intelligence activity, of course, but it's similar in that powerful organizations' relationships with laws is different than yours or mine.
      - chinathrow 11y ago
        Have you followed what's happening in Germany right now at all? If not, please read up on it, it's worth it. Fines and settlements can be reached for common people too - you can agree not to proceed with litigation and settle out of court. There is nothing wrong with that if both parties agree. Yes, I agree that sometimes it feels wired how the banks are treated, but you and I could settle out of court too if we wish.
        andreyf 11y ago
        Yes, I have, and I've clearly reached a very different understanding. Is there some point you're trying to make, aside from an ad hominem? What would you say are the chances that a prosecutor brings a case against an American for the tip-off about the leaker covered in the article? Stop nitpicking words. Do you really disagree that banks who are negotiating with the IRS or DoJ have a different relationship with the law and prosecutors than the average prosecutee being offered a plea deal? The relationship between legal costs and settlement costs alone makes for a very different game.
        chinathrow 11y ago
        Have you also followed the news, that there is a huge ongoing investigation running within the german government? I am not talking about only that Spiegel incident when I ask if you followed the news. There is a large uproar within the german people about what has been uncovered so far regarding dragnet surveillance, surveillance of politicians and now journalists. I do not know the chances but I do hope that there will be more light what happened between the BND and the NSA. And I also hope that some folks at the BND will be put to jail for what they allowed to happen on german soil. I am not nitpicking words. I do not disagree that banks have a different relationship, no. I see that as well. But I also see and accept that corps as well as private persons can settle out of court. (Thas has nothing to do with a plea deal). Settling out of court mostly is done on private terms, i.e. money or patents or whatever exchanges hands, where I think a plea deal is more about going to jail for less than what would be at risk with a trial.
- coupdejarnac 11y ago
  Watch Citizenfour, the documentary about Edward Snowden. As it is, the NSA is not permitted to spy on domestic data. How do they get around that? The data of US citizens is moved to a data warehouse abroad. Oh, it is not in the USA anymore, now it's fair game! It's a huge loophole. There has been talk of foreign governments colluding with the US government to get around domestic spying laws going many years back. I'm pretty sure I heard about it when the tech community was abuzz with Echelon and Carnivore. The Echelon furor was back around 2000.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    Did you read what I wrote? Getting around of not being able to spay on your own soil buy letting some other nation state collect all the thingsTM does not make it legal. Because that other nation state would break the law too. My example was for Germany as this is the focus of this thread.
    - user 11y ago
      > Getting around of not being able to spay on your own soil buy letting some other nation state collect all the things does not make it legal Not preventing someone from spying on your citizens, possibly encouraging them, and not prosecuting that entity once the matters become known, - looks certainly illegal to me.
      - chinathrow 11y ago
        Fully agree - and that is 100% what is happening in those countries where illegal spying by foreign nation states occured.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]

by andreyf 11y ago

chinathrow 11y ago

Legally? No it does not make sense either legally. It is forbidden by law to spy as a foreign nation on german soil. Hence the upcoming lawsuit.

andreyf 11y ago
Not in the sense that intelligence agencies follow every law of every place they operate (does anyone think they do?), but in a more practical sense - there is no legal mechanism for enforcing rules on the IC externally, and while it's not outside of the realm of possibility, I'm not super convinced we need one. What lawsuit? Would you like to wager how likely it is that an American will be convicted? Treating the law as "a list of rules everyone follows or they get in trouble" is a model that works for when you have a state to judge and enforce the rules. It does not work when organizations like powerful nation states are interacting with one another. A similarly non-traditional-law model can be seen in banking, where fines and settlements are often reached without a judicial process.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  Der Spiegel filed a complaint as stated within the article. Not a lawsuit but the start of one. "As a target of the surveillance, SPIEGEL has requested more information from the Chancellery. At the same time, the magazine filed a complaint on Friday with the Federal Public Prosecutor due to suspicion of intelligence agency activity." Fines and settlement by the way are in quite a lot of countries part of an actual judicial process.
  - andreyf 11y ago
    Ah, a request and a complaint! How did it go, do you think? "Dear Chancellor, Snowden said the Americans spied on our paper and told you our source in your organization. Could you provide us with some more evidence so that we can make a legal case against them, please?". Even if the Chancellor wanted to pursue American spies, do you think she has enough evidence to prosecute anyone? If you don't want to answer about the chance of conviction, what do you wager the chances of a prosecutor simply bringing a case to a German court are? Fines and settlements negotiated without a case ever being made public is an example of the laws working differently than they do for most. The banking example isn't much like foreign intelligence activity, of course, but it's similar in that powerful organizations' relationships with laws is different than yours or mine.
    - chinathrow 11y ago
      Have you followed what's happening in Germany right now at all? If not, please read up on it, it's worth it. Fines and settlements can be reached for common people too - you can agree not to proceed with litigation and settle out of court. There is nothing wrong with that if both parties agree. Yes, I agree that sometimes it feels wired how the banks are treated, but you and I could settle out of court too if we wish.
      - andreyf 11y ago
        Yes, I have, and I've clearly reached a very different understanding. Is there some point you're trying to make, aside from an ad hominem? What would you say are the chances that a prosecutor brings a case against an American for the tip-off about the leaker covered in the article? Stop nitpicking words. Do you really disagree that banks who are negotiating with the IRS or DoJ have a different relationship with the law and prosecutors than the average prosecutee being offered a plea deal? The relationship between legal costs and settlement costs alone makes for a very different game.
        chinathrow 11y ago
        Have you also followed the news, that there is a huge ongoing investigation running within the german government? I am not talking about only that Spiegel incident when I ask if you followed the news. There is a large uproar within the german people about what has been uncovered so far regarding dragnet surveillance, surveillance of politicians and now journalists. I do not know the chances but I do hope that there will be more light what happened between the BND and the NSA. And I also hope that some folks at the BND will be put to jail for what they allowed to happen on german soil. I am not nitpicking words. I do not disagree that banks have a different relationship, no. I see that as well. But I also see and accept that corps as well as private persons can settle out of court. (Thas has nothing to do with a plea deal). Settling out of court mostly is done on private terms, i.e. money or patents or whatever exchanges hands, where I think a plea deal is more about going to jail for less than what would be at risk with a trial.
coupdejarnac 11y ago
Watch Citizenfour, the documentary about Edward Snowden. As it is, the NSA is not permitted to spy on domestic data. How do they get around that? The data of US citizens is moved to a data warehouse abroad. Oh, it is not in the USA anymore, now it's fair game! It's a huge loophole. There has been talk of foreign governments colluding with the US government to get around domestic spying laws going many years back. I'm pretty sure I heard about it when the tech community was abuzz with Echelon and Carnivore. The Echelon furor was back around 2000.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  Did you read what I wrote? Getting around of not being able to spay on your own soil buy letting some other nation state collect all the thingsTM does not make it legal. Because that other nation state would break the law too. My example was for Germany as this is the focus of this thread.
  - user 11y ago
    > Getting around of not being able to spay on your own soil buy letting some other nation state collect all the things does not make it legal Not preventing someone from spying on your citizens, possibly encouraging them, and not prosecuting that entity once the matters become known, - looks certainly illegal to me.
    - chinathrow 11y ago
      Fully agree - and that is 100% what is happening in those countries where illegal spying by foreign nation states occured.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]