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There is another side of extra resource use that I don't really see addressed except in the mobile space: ecology. Even though my computer can run all applicat

by Kaali 11y ago

There is another side of extra resource use that I don't really see addressed except in the mobile space: ecology. Even though my computer can run all applications without a hitch, it is still very wasteful to constantly use CPU power because of technology choices or plain laziness. As an example, Spotify and Slack are two applications that seem to use most of my CPU after Chrome. Spotify and Slack combined seems to hover around 5-15% of total CPU (a two year old i7). When there is a lot of traffic in Slack I have seen it using 15-20% by itself, with multiple processes running and memory use going above 200 megs. Both applications work smoothly, but should they really use that much resources? A chat application? A music player? With modern CPU's I would expect them to be at the bottom of the process list when sorted by CPU usage. I used IRC on my Pentium 75Mhz and it ran fine. When simple applications are made so poorly that they use that much resources, what is the worldwide impact of that power use? And what about the users that don't have powerful and expensive CPU's?

bloateddevtards 11y ago
A very good point, we should have a metric that establishes how much carbon is released extra into the environment from cpu cycle wasting crap like atom and even more bloated versions of word. Clippy could pop up: "I can see you would like to release an extra ton of carbon into the atmos, why not upgrade word now!"
- Kaali 11y ago
  Apple has started doing something about energy efficiency, probably because most of their computers are laptops where energy use is quite important. OSX tracks energy efficiency, which somehow calculates how much power a single application uses (CPU + GPU if I remember correctly). But I don't think they do anything with that info at the moment. I guess it would be a nice incentive for developers if OSX could notify you that an app that is on background is using a lot of energy at the moment, maybe even with a quit-button when on battery power. At least I wouldn't want my app to end up on that kind of a popup.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Yeah, and then we could see how small the differences would actually be. A 15" Macbook Pro has a 99.5Wh battery and lasts about 8h; that's 12.5W. A program that decreases battery life by 20% would only mean an increase of 2-3W. Even if the machine and program are running 24/7 and all the energy comes from coal, that means an increase of less than 0.03T of CO2 per year. For comparison, the average carbon footprint of an US citizen is 20 Tons per year.
tormeh 11y ago
It's not that they have poor algorithms or whatever, it's that they're part native, to handle the desktop interaction and the rest is a bunch off html/css/JavaScript running in an embedded browser. At least that's how Spotify works. The problem is that our tools for making multiplatform native GUI's suck so bad we'd rather just embed an entire Web browser into everything.
- Kaali 11y ago
  There are some okayish cross platform frameworks, such as QT and even JavaFX. One of the main complaints of cross platform GUI's has been that they don't work like native applications. But for some reason nobody cares when the app works like a single page web app, which in many cases is a lot worse than even plain old Swing apps. Which at least supports right-click properly. I think the main reason that node-webkit and what-not are popular, is because of web developers moving to native app development. It's really easy to get started that way, and you can even share code with your web app. Where something like QT has a really huge learning curve for programmers transitioning from Javascript. About poor algorithms. I actually worked on optimizing a well known web browser for a couple of years. And most of the stuff we did, was because of really bad Javascript code. Even though it seems gluttonous to embed a web browser in applications, and even insecure, it doesn't have to be as bad as it is, especially with a simple application like Spotify. This is going on a bit of a tangent, but every frontend programmer should at least learn how the browser actually works, a nice site for that is http://jankfree.org/ http://jankfree.org/
  - mwcampbell 11y ago
    > There are some okayish cross platform frameworks, such as QT and even JavaFX. One of the main complaints of cross platform GUI's has been that they don't work like native applications. But for some reason nobody cares when the app works like a single page web app, which in many cases is a lot worse than even plain old Swing apps. Which at least supports right-click properly. There's more to non-nativeness than just look and feel, which the more mature cross-platform GUI toolkits can ape fairly well. Another concern is accessibility for people with disabilities, e.g. blind people using screen readers. Qt, for example, is kind of accessible on Windows, Linux, and Mac, but not at all on mobile platforms. Not sure about the status of JavaFX. At least a single-page rich web app can be made accessible using the ARIA extensions to HTML, and if you use one of the big four web rendering engines, you can be sure they've done the hard work of implementing the underlying OS accessibility APIs well. Of course, many (most?) web developers don't implement ARIA for their custom UIs.
tomjen3 11y ago
As students we learn of the cpu/memory tradeof. In the real world it is engineering time/cpu/memory that is involved in the tradeof. Given how much money we make the business case often doesn't come close to existing for moving the tradeof to CPU time. Take Slack - they are adding tons of new users and their users love them, the company has a high valuation. Focusing on getting that percentage down to nothing would have torpedoed their company.
mwcampbell 11y ago
I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, I wonder how much of the wasted CPU cycles can be attributed to carelessness that could easily be avoided, or caught early, if we developers deliberately used underpowered hardware for our own machines. Speaking for myself, my main workstation, where I also do most of the testing on my desktop apps, has a Core i7-4770 processor and 32 GB of RAM. Maybe if I used something more modest, like an ultrabook with only 8 GB of RAM, I'd be more likely to notice when I'm carelessly writing inefficient code. On the other hand, as others have argued both on this thread and elsewhere, there's a trade-off between machine efficiency and developer productivity. We may argue that it's wrong to waste machine resources when the machines in question don't belong to us, but then again, developer productivity means we can crank out more features that drive sales and make users happy.

by Kaali 11y ago

bloateddevtards 11y ago

A very good point, we should have a metric that establishes how much carbon is released extra into the environment from cpu cycle wasting crap like atom and even more bloated versions of word. Clippy could pop up: "I can see you would like to release an extra ton of carbon into the atmos, why not upgrade word now!"

Kaali 11y ago
Apple has started doing something about energy efficiency, probably because most of their computers are laptops where energy use is quite important. OSX tracks energy efficiency, which somehow calculates how much power a single application uses (CPU + GPU if I remember correctly). But I don't think they do anything with that info at the moment. I guess it would be a nice incentive for developers if OSX could notify you that an app that is on background is using a lot of energy at the moment, maybe even with a quit-button when on battery power. At least I wouldn't want my app to end up on that kind of a popup.
icebraining 11y ago
Yeah, and then we could see how small the differences would actually be. A 15" Macbook Pro has a 99.5Wh battery and lasts about 8h; that's 12.5W. A program that decreases battery life by 20% would only mean an increase of 2-3W. Even if the machine and program are running 24/7 and all the energy comes from coal, that means an increase of less than 0.03T of CO2 per year. For comparison, the average carbon footprint of an US citizen is 20 Tons per year.

tormeh 11y ago

It's not that they have poor algorithms or whatever, it's that they're part native, to handle the desktop interaction and the rest is a bunch off html/css/JavaScript running in an embedded browser. At least that's how Spotify works. The problem is that our tools for making multiplatform native GUI's suck so bad we'd rather just embed an entire Web browser into everything.

Kaali 11y ago
There are some okayish cross platform frameworks, such as QT and even JavaFX. One of the main complaints of cross platform GUI's has been that they don't work like native applications. But for some reason nobody cares when the app works like a single page web app, which in many cases is a lot worse than even plain old Swing apps. Which at least supports right-click properly. I think the main reason that node-webkit and what-not are popular, is because of web developers moving to native app development. It's really easy to get started that way, and you can even share code with your web app. Where something like QT has a really huge learning curve for programmers transitioning from Javascript. About poor algorithms. I actually worked on optimizing a well known web browser for a couple of years. And most of the stuff we did, was because of really bad Javascript code. Even though it seems gluttonous to embed a web browser in applications, and even insecure, it doesn't have to be as bad as it is, especially with a simple application like Spotify. This is going on a bit of a tangent, but every frontend programmer should at least learn how the browser actually works, a nice site for that is http://jankfree.org/ http://jankfree.org/
- mwcampbell 11y ago
  > There are some okayish cross platform frameworks, such as QT and even JavaFX. One of the main complaints of cross platform GUI's has been that they don't work like native applications. But for some reason nobody cares when the app works like a single page web app, which in many cases is a lot worse than even plain old Swing apps. Which at least supports right-click properly. There's more to non-nativeness than just look and feel, which the more mature cross-platform GUI toolkits can ape fairly well. Another concern is accessibility for people with disabilities, e.g. blind people using screen readers. Qt, for example, is kind of accessible on Windows, Linux, and Mac, but not at all on mobile platforms. Not sure about the status of JavaFX. At least a single-page rich web app can be made accessible using the ARIA extensions to HTML, and if you use one of the big four web rendering engines, you can be sure they've done the hard work of implementing the underlying OS accessibility APIs well. Of course, many (most?) web developers don't implement ARIA for their custom UIs.

tomjen3 11y ago

As students we learn of the cpu/memory tradeof. In the real world it is engineering time/cpu/memory that is involved in the tradeof. Given how much money we make the business case often doesn't come close to existing for moving the tradeof to CPU time. Take Slack - they are adding tons of new users and their users love them, the company has a high valuation. Focusing on getting that percentage down to nothing would have torpedoed their company.

mwcampbell 11y ago

I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, I wonder how much of the wasted CPU cycles can be attributed to carelessness that could easily be avoided, or caught early, if we developers deliberately used underpowered hardware for our own machines. Speaking for myself, my main workstation, where I also do most of the testing on my desktop apps, has a Core i7-4770 processor and 32 GB of RAM. Maybe if I used something more modest, like an ultrabook with only 8 GB of RAM, I'd be more likely to notice when I'm carelessly writing inefficient code. On the other hand, as others have argued both on this thread and elsewhere, there's a trade-off between machine efficiency and developer productivity. We may argue that it's wrong to waste machine resources when the machines in question don't belong to us, but then again, developer productivity means we can crank out more features that drive sales and make users happy.