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Uber announces suspension of UberPOP in France

44 points by graeham 11y ago

Furzel 11y ago
Uber POP has been against the law for one year now, this was bound to happen. Even if what the Taxis did is insanely wrong and should be condemned, Uber POP is illegal according to the french law and even trendy tech startups have to obey the law. It's now up to all the actors to find a way to make this work.
- nck4222 11y ago
  Uber's service is illegal in most places, including the US. However they grew and became popular fast enough that it put pressure on local governments to change the laws, rather than put pressure on them to ban Uber. It's basically their business model. Apparently this didn't work as well in France as it did in the US.
  - seren 11y ago
    Uber is legal in France, UberPop, in its current implementation, is not.
  - yardie 11y ago
    Uber has evolved from simple ridesharing into a real livery. That part of Uber is not illegal in most places. UberPop is the reincarnation of the original Uber. That is illegal almost everywhere. The taxis aren't protesting Uber. They don't like them but as long as they follow the law they'll have to live with it. What they are up in arms over is UberPop. Anywhere in the world you take money you are now engaged in commerce. And you have to follow the rules on commerce. Even the kid that delivers your pizza has to have auto insurance that covers delivery.
- mckoss 11y ago
  Why aren't French entrepreneurs rioting in the streets to protest against protectionist laws that primarily serve to shield incumbents from competition?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > French entrepreneurs France doesn't have as many start-up guys and girls as you probably think and besides that they probably do not feel that uberpop is entirely without blame in how this all played out. And if they start rioting they end up in jail.
  - bobcostas55 11y ago
    They all moved to SF.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Well, because most of europe doesn’t have a buzzword fueled start-up bubble like the US has. Without a real, profitable business model, you won’t even get a loan from a bank here, not to talk about other investors.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    Probably because multi-billion dollar international companies can take care of themselves.
  - prostoalex 11y ago
    From what "aikah" posted below, it sounds like shielding consists of requiring proper driver training, equivalent of commercial insurance on the vehicle, and license (which probably involves some mandatory maintenance, as commercially utilized vehicles tend to have higher mileage and higher level of abuse than personal vehicles). Compliance with all the requirements, however, removes the economic advantage.
arturhoo 11y ago
pg nailed it yesterday on Twitter: "Uber is so obviously a good thing that you can measure how corrupt cities are by how hard they try to suppress it." https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856 Edit: actually I meant this tweet from yesterday: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584 which had the other one embbeded
- tomp 11y ago
  pg is a smart man, but this argument is ridiculously stupid. "Crime is so obviously a good thing that you can measure how corrupt cities are by how hard they try to suppress it."
  - viscanti 11y ago
    Creating laws doesn't make something moral/normative. The fact that a law exists and whether it's "good" are two different things. Breaking a "bad" law might be a crime, but I'm not convinced that it's "bad". This is a country that is doing everything it can to create laws which increase the cost of transportation and reduce the ability to get a ride. It's a law that makes things less safe (there aren't enough taxis to properly service late night bars so people are forced to drive drunk - people die because of the law to protect a monopoly). We can look at the law and the reason for the law and ask if the price for protecting a government granted monopoly is worth the price (lives and money from increased transportation costs) paid.
    - gambiting 11y ago
      "so people are forced to drive drunk - people die because of the law to protect a monopoly" Jesus christ this is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day, and I have been following what is going on reddit since early morning. If anyone ever says they were "forced to drunk drive" by anything they deserve to be slapped and have their licence taken away, forever. If you go drinking, you don't bring your car with you!!!!!!
    - jarek 11y ago
com_kieffer 11y ago
The reaction to UberPop in France has been shameful. Taxi drivers have been attacking UberPop drivers for weeks, following and harassing them. They even posted videos of themselves attacking UberPop drivers and their cars on youtube on facebook. The latest outburst of violence saw taxi drivers blocking access to airports in Paris forcing passengers to walk the remainder of the way. Overturning and torching cars that looked like they might be Ubers. There was even a video of taxi drivers on a bridge on the "periphérique", the motorway that goes around Paris, dropping bricks on cars underneath. The government instead of punishing them bowed down almost immediately ... Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France. If you're striking you can get away with almost anything like kidnapping your employer and holding him hostage or blocking a major port for days on end (MyFerryLink strikes) ...
- kuschku 11y ago
  Well, we in Germany got the same result (UberPOP getting banned) by using, well, calmer methods. We fixed it by telling them if they want to provide personal transport services, they have to adhere to the laws about that – insurance, a special drivers license, etc.
  - danieldk 11y ago
    But that doesn't work that well in practice. E.g. UberPop was declared illegal by a Dutch judge in December. They just continued, paying the fines when drivers are found to be in violation. While the violence in France is inexcusable, I can understand the frustration when you are competing with some company that has such deep pockets that are above the law. It's completely unfair competition (other taxi drivers need insurances, registration, etc), robbing existing taxi drivers of their livelihood. (Yes, I am in favor of disruption in the taxi market, but with a level playing field, and guaranteed insurance for taxi customers.)
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Well, due to them repeatedly ignoring the law and just paying the fine, the courts in Germany increased the fines: 230k EUR per trip taken. That’s one of the best ways to keep the market fair.
jacky_chan 11y ago
>> Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France. Yea, like complaining about other country's problems is sacrosanct in the USA. Taxi drivers in Europe have to pay exorbitant amounts of money and go thru a gauntlet to be able to make a living. Uber, imho, steals that living away in a very real way...
- caskance 11y ago
  No, the ones who make taxi drivers pay money and run a gauntlet are the ones stealing that living away. Uber is making that process unnecessary, and that makes the people who already paid the price feel buyer's remorse.
  - jacky_chan 11y ago
    Huh?
  - draven 11y ago
    That's not really buyer's remorse. They paid for their license because you need one to operate as a taxi (along with other requirements), it's the LAW. Uber drivers do not pay for any license, so they can operate at a lower cost, but it's illegal. I'm all for Uber, I used UberPOP a few times to come back home late (5am), but not late enough (so the public transportation was not yet available) and there were not enough regular taxis (or they were overpriced.) So Uber fills a need. They'd need to work with the local government but I'm pretty sure we will be the last to allow them; France is way to conservative and protective of the local guild-like organizations (like taxi drivers.) In the meantime I'll keep seeing drunk/high people driving home.
    - ousta 11y ago
      " They paid for their license because you need one to operate as a taxi (along with other requirements), it's the LAW" hence why the real crook are the people making taxi drivers pay 200K for a driving license. Uber, like Free Telecom or like Amazon is a disrupting force. and disrupting forces are always benefical at their early stages. they tend to become much less good for the people when they become leaders on markets were they have destroyed all their oponents. Amazon will soon be the first example of that.
aikah 11y ago
For those who want a TLDR : UberPOP is LEGAL in France, nobody has shut down UberPOP. HOWEVER : - A driver who wants to drive for UberPOP can do that, BUT it has to follow the french laws which means: paying a specific amount of taxes on their revenue, getting a 250 hours training, paying for a specific insurance Of course, driving legally for UberPOP in France IS NOT PROFITABLE at all. Uber can't have it both ways. It cannot fix prices for rides and expect legal drivers to work and make a profit with these prices. Other services such as private limousines can continue, they are legal, as long as drivers operate legally. UberPOP business model cannot work in France. But they are free to provide and distribute their app. The app is legal.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  Do the drivers also need taxi licenses? They don't release them any more, so the only way to get one is to buy it for 6 figures on the gray market from a licensed driver wanting to retire (in theory it can't be sold, but there are workarounds and loopholes).
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    What is supposed to happen to the license once the driver retires ? Put back into use ? Is the driver getting a refund on the license ?
  - seren 11y ago
    No need of a taxi license, "car rental with Chauffeur" is legal, and has existed for ages. The only difference with a taxi is that you are supposed to book them in advance, and you can't just hail them. (And their might be some other restrictions around airport or something..) But if you hire a chauffeur (with his car), he needs to have the proper insurance to cover him and its passenger. Uber drivers actually must and have subscribed to them. The issue with Uberpop is that most of its drivers don't have subscribed to that special insurance, and as a results are pushing the cost to everyone else. As a regular driver, I would be quite unhappy if there was like 50k+ plus Uberpop driving all day long full of passengers, and if they were paying the same amount of money than an occasional driver, while being much more likely to have costly crashes. Hence the reason to require that UberPop drivers have a proper transportation insurance in the first place. Aside of any fairness, or legacy medallion system consideration, it is just a bad idea economically to have everyone paying higher insurance costs so that UberPop can reap all the benefits...
danieltillett 11y ago
My major complaint about uber is how it externalises its costs. Things like insurance. The risk profile is not the same when carrying passenger as for private travel. When an uber driver decides to forgo getting the correct insurance they are pushing their extra risk on to me and the rest of the people in the private travel insurance pool. More long term uber shares a lot of similarities to napster. The music industry was never able to unscramble the egg after napster and the taxi industry is in the same position. Of course if you are an investor in uber your investment probably has the same long term value as napster.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  You can always go for a higher class vehicle. UberBlack providers usually have all the licenses, insurances and permits that are necessary. They know it's a reputation business, many of them use Uber as one of many lead generators, and therefore don't want the risk to the remainder of their business.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    I should have been more precise and said uber x rather than just uber. UberBlack is a fine business, the problem is it is not what is sustaining the current valuation of uber.
rmc 11y ago
Looks like the unions disrupted Uber's business model.
- afsina 11y ago
  I think the opposite happened.
Fede_V 11y ago
I really dislike the protectionist barriers that exist to keep competition away from taxis, pharmacies, etc... but the people that are currently in those jobs often got themselves into a massive amount of debt to buy a license. We should get rid of the old system, but we cannot simply tell the people who invested 100,000+ Euros into a license that it's just become worthless. Should those people just kill themselves?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- srj 11y ago
  I'm not sure how it is in France, but in some cities a few large firms own the taxi licenses and rent them out to drivers. The people who buy them do so as an investment, speculating that because of their scarcity that the resale value will rise. Not all investments pan out. If the citizens want to bail them out they could offer to buy back the licenses.
crdb 11y ago
I'm surprised nobody has yet commented on WHY they are shutting down tonight. From [1]: "We have decided to suspend UberPOP starting tonight [...] first and foremost to protect our drivers ." - Thibaud Simphal, CEO Uber France Translation: "this is supposed to be a developed country with the rule of law, but the police is not capable of doing its job (or willing), so we're giving up". Another pearl: "Since the first of January, only 215 new VTC [licenses for private cars, the so called "legal" way of becoming an UberX] licenses were given out in the whole of France, even though during the same period, we had over 25,000 applicants at Uber to become a VTC driver." That's a 0.86% success rate. I'm sure those 215 cars were the absolute limit the market (of ~60 million inhabitants, with 400,000 passengers already using UberPOP) could bear and that the decision is not at all politically motivated. [1] http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-annonce-la-suspension-d-uberpop-en-france_4669011_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-annon...
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Personally I would have thought it had to do with the fact that uber executives are getting arrested.

44 points by graeham 11y ago

Uber POP has been against the law for one year now, this was bound to happen. Even if what the Taxis did is insanely wrong and should be condemned, Uber POP is illegal according to the french law and even trendy tech startups have to obey the law. It's now up to all the actors to find a way to make this work.

nck4222 11y ago
Uber's service is illegal in most places, including the US. However they grew and became popular fast enough that it put pressure on local governments to change the laws, rather than put pressure on them to ban Uber. It's basically their business model. Apparently this didn't work as well in France as it did in the US.
- seren 11y ago
  Uber is legal in France, UberPop, in its current implementation, is not.
- yardie 11y ago
  Uber has evolved from simple ridesharing into a real livery. That part of Uber is not illegal in most places. UberPop is the reincarnation of the original Uber. That is illegal almost everywhere. The taxis aren't protesting Uber. They don't like them but as long as they follow the law they'll have to live with it. What they are up in arms over is UberPop. Anywhere in the world you take money you are now engaged in commerce. And you have to follow the rules on commerce. Even the kid that delivers your pizza has to have auto insurance that covers delivery.
mckoss 11y ago
Why aren't French entrepreneurs rioting in the streets to protest against protectionist laws that primarily serve to shield incumbents from competition?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > French entrepreneurs France doesn't have as many start-up guys and girls as you probably think and besides that they probably do not feel that uberpop is entirely without blame in how this all played out. And if they start rioting they end up in jail.
- bobcostas55 11y ago
  They all moved to SF.
- kuschku 11y ago
  Well, because most of europe doesn’t have a buzzword fueled start-up bubble like the US has. Without a real, profitable business model, you won’t even get a loan from a bank here, not to talk about other investors.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Probably because multi-billion dollar international companies can take care of themselves.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  From what "aikah" posted below, it sounds like shielding consists of requiring proper driver training, equivalent of commercial insurance on the vehicle, and license (which probably involves some mandatory maintenance, as commercially utilized vehicles tend to have higher mileage and higher level of abuse than personal vehicles). Compliance with all the requirements, however, removes the economic advantage.

arturhoo 11y ago

pg nailed it yesterday on Twitter: "Uber is so obviously a good thing that you can measure how corrupt cities are by how hard they try to suppress it." https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856 Edit: actually I meant this tweet from yesterday: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584 which had the other one embbeded

tomp 11y ago
pg is a smart man, but this argument is ridiculously stupid. "Crime is so obviously a good thing that you can measure how corrupt cities are by how hard they try to suppress it."
- viscanti 11y ago
  Creating laws doesn't make something moral/normative. The fact that a law exists and whether it's "good" are two different things. Breaking a "bad" law might be a crime, but I'm not convinced that it's "bad". This is a country that is doing everything it can to create laws which increase the cost of transportation and reduce the ability to get a ride. It's a law that makes things less safe (there aren't enough taxis to properly service late night bars so people are forced to drive drunk - people die because of the law to protect a monopoly). We can look at the law and the reason for the law and ask if the price for protecting a government granted monopoly is worth the price (lives and money from increased transportation costs) paid.
  - gambiting 11y ago
    "so people are forced to drive drunk - people die because of the law to protect a monopoly" Jesus christ this is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day, and I have been following what is going on reddit since early morning. If anyone ever says they were "forced to drunk drive" by anything they deserve to be slapped and have their licence taken away, forever. If you go drinking, you don't bring your car with you!!!!!!
  - jarek 11y ago

com_kieffer 11y ago

The reaction to UberPop in France has been shameful. Taxi drivers have been attacking UberPop drivers for weeks, following and harassing them. They even posted videos of themselves attacking UberPop drivers and their cars on youtube on facebook. The latest outburst of violence saw taxi drivers blocking access to airports in Paris forcing passengers to walk the remainder of the way. Overturning and torching cars that looked like they might be Ubers. There was even a video of taxi drivers on a bridge on the "periphérique", the motorway that goes around Paris, dropping bricks on cars underneath. The government instead of punishing them bowed down almost immediately ... Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France. If you're striking you can get away with almost anything like kidnapping your employer and holding him hostage or blocking a major port for days on end (MyFerryLink strikes) ...

kuschku 11y ago
Well, we in Germany got the same result (UberPOP getting banned) by using, well, calmer methods. We fixed it by telling them if they want to provide personal transport services, they have to adhere to the laws about that – insurance, a special drivers license, etc.
- danieldk 11y ago
  But that doesn't work that well in practice. E.g. UberPop was declared illegal by a Dutch judge in December. They just continued, paying the fines when drivers are found to be in violation. While the violence in France is inexcusable, I can understand the frustration when you are competing with some company that has such deep pockets that are above the law. It's completely unfair competition (other taxi drivers need insurances, registration, etc), robbing existing taxi drivers of their livelihood. (Yes, I am in favor of disruption in the taxi market, but with a level playing field, and guaranteed insurance for taxi customers.)
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Well, due to them repeatedly ignoring the law and just paying the fine, the courts in Germany increased the fines: 230k EUR per trip taken. That’s one of the best ways to keep the market fair.

jacky_chan 11y ago

>> Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France. Yea, like complaining about other country's problems is sacrosanct in the USA. Taxi drivers in Europe have to pay exorbitant amounts of money and go thru a gauntlet to be able to make a living. Uber, imho, steals that living away in a very real way...

caskance 11y ago
No, the ones who make taxi drivers pay money and run a gauntlet are the ones stealing that living away. Uber is making that process unnecessary, and that makes the people who already paid the price feel buyer's remorse.
- jacky_chan 11y ago
  Huh?
- draven 11y ago
  That's not really buyer's remorse. They paid for their license because you need one to operate as a taxi (along with other requirements), it's the LAW. Uber drivers do not pay for any license, so they can operate at a lower cost, but it's illegal. I'm all for Uber, I used UberPOP a few times to come back home late (5am), but not late enough (so the public transportation was not yet available) and there were not enough regular taxis (or they were overpriced.) So Uber fills a need. They'd need to work with the local government but I'm pretty sure we will be the last to allow them; France is way to conservative and protective of the local guild-like organizations (like taxi drivers.) In the meantime I'll keep seeing drunk/high people driving home.
  - ousta 11y ago
    " They paid for their license because you need one to operate as a taxi (along with other requirements), it's the LAW" hence why the real crook are the people making taxi drivers pay 200K for a driving license. Uber, like Free Telecom or like Amazon is a disrupting force. and disrupting forces are always benefical at their early stages. they tend to become much less good for the people when they become leaders on markets were they have destroyed all their oponents. Amazon will soon be the first example of that.

aikah 11y ago

For those who want a TLDR : UberPOP is LEGAL in France, nobody has shut down UberPOP. HOWEVER : - A driver who wants to drive for UberPOP can do that, BUT it has to follow the french laws which means: paying a specific amount of taxes on their revenue, getting a 250 hours training, paying for a specific insurance Of course, driving legally for UberPOP in France IS NOT PROFITABLE at all. Uber can't have it both ways. It cannot fix prices for rides and expect legal drivers to work and make a profit with these prices. Other services such as private limousines can continue, they are legal, as long as drivers operate legally. UberPOP business model cannot work in France. But they are free to provide and distribute their app. The app is legal.

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
Do the drivers also need taxi licenses? They don't release them any more, so the only way to get one is to buy it for 6 figures on the gray market from a licensed driver wanting to retire (in theory it can't be sold, but there are workarounds and loopholes).
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  What is supposed to happen to the license once the driver retires ? Put back into use ? Is the driver getting a refund on the license ?
- seren 11y ago
  No need of a taxi license, "car rental with Chauffeur" is legal, and has existed for ages. The only difference with a taxi is that you are supposed to book them in advance, and you can't just hail them. (And their might be some other restrictions around airport or something..) But if you hire a chauffeur (with his car), he needs to have the proper insurance to cover him and its passenger. Uber drivers actually must and have subscribed to them. The issue with Uberpop is that most of its drivers don't have subscribed to that special insurance, and as a results are pushing the cost to everyone else. As a regular driver, I would be quite unhappy if there was like 50k+ plus Uberpop driving all day long full of passengers, and if they were paying the same amount of money than an occasional driver, while being much more likely to have costly crashes. Hence the reason to require that UberPop drivers have a proper transportation insurance in the first place. Aside of any fairness, or legacy medallion system consideration, it is just a bad idea economically to have everyone paying higher insurance costs so that UberPop can reap all the benefits...

danieltillett 11y ago

My major complaint about uber is how it externalises its costs. Things like insurance. The risk profile is not the same when carrying passenger as for private travel. When an uber driver decides to forgo getting the correct insurance they are pushing their extra risk on to me and the rest of the people in the private travel insurance pool. More long term uber shares a lot of similarities to napster. The music industry was never able to unscramble the egg after napster and the taxi industry is in the same position. Of course if you are an investor in uber your investment probably has the same long term value as napster.

prostoalex 11y ago
You can always go for a higher class vehicle. UberBlack providers usually have all the licenses, insurances and permits that are necessary. They know it's a reputation business, many of them use Uber as one of many lead generators, and therefore don't want the risk to the remainder of their business.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  I should have been more precise and said uber x rather than just uber. UberBlack is a fine business, the problem is it is not what is sustaining the current valuation of uber.

rmc 11y ago

Looks like the unions disrupted Uber's business model.

afsina 11y ago
I think the opposite happened.

Fede_V 11y ago

I really dislike the protectionist barriers that exist to keep competition away from taxis, pharmacies, etc... but the people that are currently in those jobs often got themselves into a massive amount of debt to buy a license. We should get rid of the old system, but we cannot simply tell the people who invested 100,000+ Euros into a license that it's just become worthless. Should those people just kill themselves?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
srj 11y ago
I'm not sure how it is in France, but in some cities a few large firms own the taxi licenses and rent them out to drivers. The people who buy them do so as an investment, speculating that because of their scarcity that the resale value will rise. Not all investments pan out. If the citizens want to bail them out they could offer to buy back the licenses.

crdb 11y ago

I'm surprised nobody has yet commented on WHY they are shutting down tonight. From [1]: "We have decided to suspend UberPOP starting tonight [...] first and foremost to protect our drivers ." - Thibaud Simphal, CEO Uber France Translation: "this is supposed to be a developed country with the rule of law, but the police is not capable of doing its job (or willing), so we're giving up". Another pearl: "Since the first of January, only 215 new VTC [licenses for private cars, the so called "legal" way of becoming an UberX] licenses were given out in the whole of France, even though during the same period, we had over 25,000 applicants at Uber to become a VTC driver." That's a 0.86% success rate. I'm sure those 215 cars were the absolute limit the market (of ~60 million inhabitants, with 400,000 passengers already using UberPOP) could bear and that the decision is not at all politically motivated. [1] http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-annonce-la-suspension-d-uberpop-en-france_4669011_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-annon...

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Personally I would have thought it had to do with the fact that uber executives are getting arrested.