10 ms·

> basically everything you said It isn't about the firing. It is about subverting posts, subverting ideologies, deleting subs, limiting free speech in general

> basically everything you said It isn't about the firing. It is about subverting posts, subverting ideologies, deleting subs, limiting free speech in general and having an ambiguous morality/decision making process that is impossible to trust. Hiring Pao was so stupid. Leaving aside whether she was qualified, you can't lead a team that doesn't respect or relate to you. > this is a huge vote of "no confidence" towards the admins in general I couldn't agree more

rodgerd 11y ago
You forgot ethics in game journalism.
- vonklaus 11y ago
  People caring to much about bullshit like ethics in game journalism are missing the forest for the trees. Pleasing special interest groups in a massively diverse community isn't possible, that's why democracy is typically favored over this bullypulpit nonsense.
  - tehwebguy 11y ago
    I think they were being sarcastic
    - rodgerd 11y ago
      Quite. It's like a sea lion colony in here.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    So what you're saying is "Caring about any single little/domain-specific problem is bad because there's war, cancer and starvation"? Fallacy of relative privation, much?
    - vonklaus 11y ago
      > begging the question but seriously, it was my snarky way of saying that: 1)Creating a system level heuristic to deal with types of problems is a more transparent, consistent and efficient way forward than simply tackling problems as they come up arbitrarily. 2)I am sick of this boys vs. girls/pc/whatever tropic bullshit, and the failure to enact a codified set of principals within reddit has allowed for groups with opposing views to discretely exert influence against one another. This murky climate lead to all sides entrenching and leveraging the influence they had acquired. >content has been sliding >doxxing has gone up >several of the largest sections of the site are literally closed down >community is faltering >no side wants to compromise tl;dr Flame wars are why this happened. Gaming is one of the stupid tropes that lead to this. I got #triggered.
      - scrollaway 11y ago
        Hey I think GG is pathetic, for a lot of reasons. But my previous job was at a games media company (and I'm still involved with them), and the stuff that goes on in games media is horribly incestuous. I mean yeah, bigger fish to fry and all that, but it's still a problem for a lot of people - other problems existing doesn't change that. I'm sure "we" could fix the bigger issue at large but who's "we"? Who's working on that, and why does it invalidate incestuous and unpublished conflicts of interest?
- pron 11y ago
  LOL (I think this is the first time I've ever written that word, but I really laughed this time). Well done! :) But hey, kids need to feel important too, and nothing gives you a sense of belonging as a manufactured conspiracy and a sense of persecution.
  - Gigablah 11y ago
    > But hey, kids need to feel important too This is a basic emotional need, why are you mocking it?
geofft 11y ago
The same goes for Yishan Wong, who personally hired Ellen Pao, supports the recent moderation actions[1], thought he wasn't qualified for the job[2], and censored creepshots, right? The whole thing's been going downhill since 2012, I guess? [1] http://www.quora.com/Reddit-Strengthens-Moderation-Spring-and-Summer-2015/What-does-Yishan-Wong-think-of-Reddits-new-anti-harassment-policy?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Reddit-Strengthens-Moderation-Spring-an... [2] http://www.redditblog.com/2012/03/new-reddit-ceo-reporting-for-duty.html http://www.redditblog.com/2012/03/new-reddit-ceo-reporting-f...
- Malician 11y ago
  I think you're trying to make a sarcastic point here (unless I'm mistaken,) but that's probably quite true as written. Even /r/askscience supports this move [1]. It is one of the most heavily moderated subreddits on the site, with professional staff. These aren't rabblerousers, they are very hard-working volunteers who are fed up with the administration. [1]https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_message_to_our_users/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_messag...
  - geofft 11y ago
    The comment I replied to was trying to say that this isn't about the firing, and is about the process of limiting free speech and restricting subs in a non-transparent manner. I see none of that in the /r/askscience post. It seems to me that there are two major, unrelated tensions in Reddit at the moment: 1. Certain people want Reddit to be a haven for free speech, including speech that coordinates abusive actions. The Reddit admins (current and past) don't think that's what Reddit should be. 2. The Reddit admins have a poorly structured relationship with the volunteer mods of their largest subreddits. IAmA's full-time paid staff member was the biggest evidence of this poor structure, but it has never worked well. [Even if AskScience's mods are professional scientists, they're still volunteer AskScience mods.] The first tension is between the Reddit admins and a few non-default, somewhat small subreddits (some of which have been banned in the last few years); the second is between the Reddit admins and the large, mostly default subreddits. In both cases, people are fed up with the admins, and in both cases, this may have been going on for years, but they are fundamentally unrelated complaints. You can believe that the admins are doing fine on one while believing they're doing an awful job on the other. By and large, the people who complain about Ellen Pao's leadership are complaining about tension 1. Tension 2 is organizational debt that Ellen Pao clearly inherited, and while the buck now stops with her to fix it, nobody thinks it's a problem of her making. People unhappy about tension 1 (including, potentially, mods of smaller non-default questionable subreddits) may use today's tension-2 event to vent anger at the admins, but that doesn't mean there's only a single complaint about the admins. I'd also argue that if tension 1 were really a problem (i.e., Reddit staff were wrong), Reddit would be obviously going downhill, while tension 2 can fester as organizational debt for years before exploding, if everyone is well-intentioned. (My personal view, if it didn't come through, is that the admins are in the right on tension 1 and if anything aren't aggressive enough, but have been doing a bad job of resolving tension 2 for years.)
pron 11y ago
They're not "limiting free speech" in any way or form. They're moderating what gets published on their platform. That's a totally different thing. You got anything to say? Print out a pamphlet or host a blog on your own server. Nobody's stopping you. As to ambiguous decision making -- you're right about that, but they have a problem. Reddit has a largeish group of teenagers, unemployed white men living in their mother's basement and techno-libertarians, that have turned the site into a cesspool of xenophobia, misogyny, wingnut conspiracies and most of all -- lots of eighth grade drama . Those people, of course, don't matter (advertisers don't care much about them), and nobody in the real-world (not most Reddit users) care or even notice the imaginary armageddon taking place in those kids' heads, but the problem with them is that 1) they're unreasonable, and 2) they have the time to make the lives of the site administrators miserable (it would make their day -- they've got nothing more exciting to do). So the people running Reddit are scared. They've invited the devil -- worse, teenagers -- into their home for an endless party, and they know they'll trash the place even more if the party were to end. So they're sending mixed messages. They're talking about respect, but they allow CoonTown and "men"'s rights groups. It's time for Reddit to grow some balls, kick the misbehaving kids out, shutdown not a few, but all hate subreddits, all without issuing as much as a press release. The kids will talk about their judgement day (that nobody in the world would notice) for years, the grown men in their mom's basement will feel like they're actually being hunted, and everybody would get exactly what they want.
- derpherpderp 11y ago
  Are there really a lot of teenagers on there? When I was in high school almost nobody knew about Reddit, it took until college for most of my peers to find out what it was.
antocv 11y ago
> It isn't about the firing. It is about subverting posts, subverting ideologies It is political. See r/UkrainianConflict for an example. I followed that sub from its creation to what it has become - it is USAs own propaganda channel. I find it fascinating how it has become that way.

rodgerd 11y ago

You forgot ethics in game journalism.

vonklaus 11y ago
People caring to much about bullshit like ethics in game journalism are missing the forest for the trees. Pleasing special interest groups in a massively diverse community isn't possible, that's why democracy is typically favored over this bullypulpit nonsense.
- tehwebguy 11y ago
  I think they were being sarcastic
  - rodgerd 11y ago
    Quite. It's like a sea lion colony in here.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  So what you're saying is "Caring about any single little/domain-specific problem is bad because there's war, cancer and starvation"? Fallacy of relative privation, much?
  - vonklaus 11y ago
    > begging the question but seriously, it was my snarky way of saying that: 1)Creating a system level heuristic to deal with types of problems is a more transparent, consistent and efficient way forward than simply tackling problems as they come up arbitrarily. 2)I am sick of this boys vs. girls/pc/whatever tropic bullshit, and the failure to enact a codified set of principals within reddit has allowed for groups with opposing views to discretely exert influence against one another. This murky climate lead to all sides entrenching and leveraging the influence they had acquired. >content has been sliding >doxxing has gone up >several of the largest sections of the site are literally closed down >community is faltering >no side wants to compromise tl;dr Flame wars are why this happened. Gaming is one of the stupid tropes that lead to this. I got #triggered.
    - scrollaway 11y ago
      Hey I think GG is pathetic, for a lot of reasons. But my previous job was at a games media company (and I'm still involved with them), and the stuff that goes on in games media is horribly incestuous. I mean yeah, bigger fish to fry and all that, but it's still a problem for a lot of people - other problems existing doesn't change that. I'm sure "we" could fix the bigger issue at large but who's "we"? Who's working on that, and why does it invalidate incestuous and unpublished conflicts of interest?
pron 11y ago
LOL (I think this is the first time I've ever written that word, but I really laughed this time). Well done! :) But hey, kids need to feel important too, and nothing gives you a sense of belonging as a manufactured conspiracy and a sense of persecution.
- Gigablah 11y ago
  > But hey, kids need to feel important too This is a basic emotional need, why are you mocking it?

geofft 11y ago

The same goes for Yishan Wong, who personally hired Ellen Pao, supports the recent moderation actions[1], thought he wasn't qualified for the job[2], and censored creepshots, right? The whole thing's been going downhill since 2012, I guess? [1] http://www.quora.com/Reddit-Strengthens-Moderation-Spring-and-Summer-2015/What-does-Yishan-Wong-think-of-Reddits-new-anti-harassment-policy?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Reddit-Strengthens-Moderation-Spring-an... [2] http://www.redditblog.com/2012/03/new-reddit-ceo-reporting-for-duty.html http://www.redditblog.com/2012/03/new-reddit-ceo-reporting-f...

Malician 11y ago
I think you're trying to make a sarcastic point here (unless I'm mistaken,) but that's probably quite true as written. Even /r/askscience supports this move [1]. It is one of the most heavily moderated subreddits on the site, with professional staff. These aren't rabblerousers, they are very hard-working volunteers who are fed up with the administration. [1]https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_message_to_our_users/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_messag...
- geofft 11y ago
  The comment I replied to was trying to say that this isn't about the firing, and is about the process of limiting free speech and restricting subs in a non-transparent manner. I see none of that in the /r/askscience post. It seems to me that there are two major, unrelated tensions in Reddit at the moment: 1. Certain people want Reddit to be a haven for free speech, including speech that coordinates abusive actions. The Reddit admins (current and past) don't think that's what Reddit should be. 2. The Reddit admins have a poorly structured relationship with the volunteer mods of their largest subreddits. IAmA's full-time paid staff member was the biggest evidence of this poor structure, but it has never worked well. [Even if AskScience's mods are professional scientists, they're still volunteer AskScience mods.] The first tension is between the Reddit admins and a few non-default, somewhat small subreddits (some of which have been banned in the last few years); the second is between the Reddit admins and the large, mostly default subreddits. In both cases, people are fed up with the admins, and in both cases, this may have been going on for years, but they are fundamentally unrelated complaints. You can believe that the admins are doing fine on one while believing they're doing an awful job on the other. By and large, the people who complain about Ellen Pao's leadership are complaining about tension 1. Tension 2 is organizational debt that Ellen Pao clearly inherited, and while the buck now stops with her to fix it, nobody thinks it's a problem of her making. People unhappy about tension 1 (including, potentially, mods of smaller non-default questionable subreddits) may use today's tension-2 event to vent anger at the admins, but that doesn't mean there's only a single complaint about the admins. I'd also argue that if tension 1 were really a problem (i.e., Reddit staff were wrong), Reddit would be obviously going downhill, while tension 2 can fester as organizational debt for years before exploding, if everyone is well-intentioned. (My personal view, if it didn't come through, is that the admins are in the right on tension 1 and if anything aren't aggressive enough, but have been doing a bad job of resolving tension 2 for years.)

pron 11y ago

They're not "limiting free speech" in any way or form. They're moderating what gets published on their platform. That's a totally different thing. You got anything to say? Print out a pamphlet or host a blog on your own server. Nobody's stopping you. As to ambiguous decision making -- you're right about that, but they have a problem. Reddit has a largeish group of teenagers, unemployed white men living in their mother's basement and techno-libertarians, that have turned the site into a cesspool of xenophobia, misogyny, wingnut conspiracies and most of all -- lots of eighth grade drama . Those people, of course, don't matter (advertisers don't care much about them), and nobody in the real-world (not most Reddit users) care or even notice the imaginary armageddon taking place in those kids' heads, but the problem with them is that 1) they're unreasonable, and 2) they have the time to make the lives of the site administrators miserable (it would make their day -- they've got nothing more exciting to do). So the people running Reddit are scared. They've invited the devil -- worse, teenagers -- into their home for an endless party, and they know they'll trash the place even more if the party were to end. So they're sending mixed messages. They're talking about respect, but they allow CoonTown and "men"'s rights groups. It's time for Reddit to grow some balls, kick the misbehaving kids out, shutdown not a few, but all hate subreddits, all without issuing as much as a press release. The kids will talk about their judgement day (that nobody in the world would notice) for years, the grown men in their mom's basement will feel like they're actually being hunted, and everybody would get exactly what they want.

derpherpderp 11y ago
Are there really a lot of teenagers on there? When I was in high school almost nobody knew about Reddit, it took until college for most of my peers to find out what it was.

antocv 11y ago

> It isn't about the firing. It is about subverting posts, subverting ideologies It is political. See r/UkrainianConflict for an example. I followed that sub from its creation to what it has become - it is USAs own propaganda channel. I find it fascinating how it has become that way.