5 ms·

Exactly. It's unfair to judge people on their genetics or more generally on how they were born. It might surprise us if someone identifies as something that se

Exactly. It's unfair to judge people on their genetics or more generally on how they were born. It might surprise us if someone identifies as something that seems "at odds" with how they were born, but if they honestly identify that way, I see no reason not to tolerate and accept them. It's a matter of basic decency.

Nadya 11y ago
If someone identifies themselves as an 'Otherkin' then I feel the most humane thing to do would be to help treat them. Playing pretend only worsens their condition and reinforces the behavior. Regardless of the size of the population ("other people believe they are dragons too!") doesn't make it "right" anymore than a majority of a population being bipolar means we should stop treating bipolar disorder. Same goes for gender dysphoria. To me, "basic decency" would be helping to treat their gender dysphoria and not encourage it. Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, with regret of the surgery itself not being uncommon [0]. Even in areas where the social stigma of being transexual isn't anything near what is in the US (ie. Sweden). That isn't helping these people, it's hurting them. Basic decency tells me I shouldn't hurt people - I should help them. Even if they don't "feel like I'm helping them" (eg. intervening for a drug addict). Sometimes what is in someone's best interest isn't necessarily what they think they want as sometimes what people think they want or say they want isn't really what they want; as UX research alone shows [1]. "They are judging the evidence presented to them based on a model of reality, a map that they’ve used their entire lives, and you can’t just tell someone that his or her map is of a fantasy realm that doesn’t exist and expect them to respond positively. You can’t just ask a person like that to throw away that map and start over, especially if they’ve yet to realize it is just a map, and their beliefs are only models." - [2] Links are to blogs - as the blogs link to a multitude of studies/sources themselves: [0] http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing... [1] http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-you-what-they-want http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-yo... [2] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the-psychology-of-forming-keeping-and-sometimes-changing-our-beliefs/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the...
- DanBC 11y ago
  > Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, This is a lie. It's a particularly vicious lie because you want to: 1: prevent people getting rapid access to gender reassignment treatment (and that delay increases risk of suicide) 2: "treat" gender dysphoria (and your style of treatment also increases risk of suicide). Those links you provide are not sources. Do you have any actual sources?
  - Nadya 11y ago
    No it isn't - and it's even more annoying that you make assumptions on my behalf. You should make a better effort not to make assumptions about people or their motives. 1: I'm someone who suffers from gender dysphoria 2: I considered and researched gender reassignment for 6 years before deciding that the evidence largely shows it is not beneficial and often leads to regret and depression that is worse than pre-op. Given I won't know how I'd react to it until after the fact and it isn't easily reversible, I decided against it. Here is the Sweden-based study I hinted at: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
    - brighteyes 11y ago
      As the summary of that study says, > Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. In other words, they agree it helps with dysphoria. However, it may have other downsides - which is perhaps not surprising, as it is major surgery in some cases; and it is troubling that there is an increased risk of suicide. However, it should be an informed choice for people to make: this can help with their dysphoria, with some significant risks. Many treatments have such cost-benefit tradeoffs. In the end, it should be a personal decision for the relevant people. It is unfair to say that these treatments "do not help". And risk of mortality is not the sole determining factor, there is also quality of life and so forth (e.g., some powerful anti-acne medication has an increased risk of mortality).

Nadya 11y ago

If someone identifies themselves as an 'Otherkin' then I feel the most humane thing to do would be to help treat them. Playing pretend only worsens their condition and reinforces the behavior. Regardless of the size of the population ("other people believe they are dragons too!") doesn't make it "right" anymore than a majority of a population being bipolar means we should stop treating bipolar disorder. Same goes for gender dysphoria. To me, "basic decency" would be helping to treat their gender dysphoria and not encourage it. Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, with regret of the surgery itself not being uncommon [0]. Even in areas where the social stigma of being transexual isn't anything near what is in the US (ie. Sweden). That isn't helping these people, it's hurting them. Basic decency tells me I shouldn't hurt people - I should help them. Even if they don't "feel like I'm helping them" (eg. intervening for a drug addict). Sometimes what is in someone's best interest isn't necessarily what they think they want as sometimes what people think they want or say they want isn't really what they want; as UX research alone shows [1]. "They are judging the evidence presented to them based on a model of reality, a map that they’ve used their entire lives, and you can’t just tell someone that his or her map is of a fantasy realm that doesn’t exist and expect them to respond positively. You can’t just ask a person like that to throw away that map and start over, especially if they’ve yet to realize it is just a map, and their beliefs are only models." - [2] Links are to blogs - as the blogs link to a multitude of studies/sources themselves: [0] http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing... [1] http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-you-what-they-want http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-yo... [2] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the-psychology-of-forming-keeping-and-sometimes-changing-our-beliefs/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the...

DanBC 11y ago
> Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, This is a lie. It's a particularly vicious lie because you want to: 1: prevent people getting rapid access to gender reassignment treatment (and that delay increases risk of suicide) 2: "treat" gender dysphoria (and your style of treatment also increases risk of suicide). Those links you provide are not sources. Do you have any actual sources?
- Nadya 11y ago
  No it isn't - and it's even more annoying that you make assumptions on my behalf. You should make a better effort not to make assumptions about people or their motives. 1: I'm someone who suffers from gender dysphoria 2: I considered and researched gender reassignment for 6 years before deciding that the evidence largely shows it is not beneficial and often leads to regret and depression that is worse than pre-op. Given I won't know how I'd react to it until after the fact and it isn't easily reversible, I decided against it. Here is the Sweden-based study I hinted at: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
  - brighteyes 11y ago
    As the summary of that study says, > Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. In other words, they agree it helps with dysphoria. However, it may have other downsides - which is perhaps not surprising, as it is major surgery in some cases; and it is troubling that there is an increased risk of suicide. However, it should be an informed choice for people to make: this can help with their dysphoria, with some significant risks. Many treatments have such cost-benefit tradeoffs. In the end, it should be a personal decision for the relevant people. It is unfair to say that these treatments "do not help". And risk of mortality is not the sole determining factor, there is also quality of life and so forth (e.g., some powerful anti-acne medication has an increased risk of mortality).