6 ms·

>So race is strictly a social construction? >Yes Alright, so race is a matter of social identity, whereas sex (biologically "set in stone") is less important

>So race is strictly a social construction? >Yes Alright, so race is a matter of social identity, whereas sex (biologically "set in stone") is less important than a person's "gender identity"? I'm sure I'll be criticized for expressing a political viewpoint here, but our now-popular social norms seem to have these two ideas reversed. I guess popular opinion and what a person feels is (and always will be) more important than what science says. Edit to add: my point isn't so much about either of these issues individually as it is about (a lack of) consistency in popular views. If gender is just about identity, then why isn't race? Recently, I've been hearing the same people argue for one and against the other. Similarly confusing is the notion that sexual orientation is not an issue of identity (it's somehow deeper than that), even though there's no concrete scientific evidence to suggest it's not a matter of identity or preference as well.

venomsnake 11y ago
Well identity politics is a great way to make a lot of noise while the real issues go unattended (whether on purpose or not).
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  By what mechanism does this work? We can trace the history of identity politics, from 60's and 70's counterculture, Marxist academics, feminism, until it became academic mainstream. If this was on purpose, how did it happen? If not, how is it relevant anyway? Presumably if you can make a compelling case that what you consider to be the real issues are more important, people will make a rational choice to focus more on them.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    Lets start with global warming, 8 year global economic depression, the destruction of the ecosystem and the fact that we are in the middle of an extinction even. Also the global geopolitics going to hell is vaguely important too. I would also add the incoming caste-ization of the society as a problem too. It is not on purpose, but it is convenient noise making. We all will be equal in the grave. Lets work on postponing that moment.
    - JesperRavn 11y ago
      You are totally avoiding the argument by throwing in "convenient". Either people are simply choosing to focus on what are to you the wrong problems, or people's focus is being intentionally shifted away from the wrong problems. If you want to argue for the latter, you need to explain how it is happening.
      - venomsnake 11y ago
        The mechanism is easy - identity turns us into pavlov's dog - the brain shuts down. Media know that this generate traffic and outrage so it is easy money for them. And a person has so much attention per day. So we are being fed bite sized little controversies every day.
    - pron 11y ago
      If you were only a bit more sophisticated in your thought (or knowledgeable in the issues you've raised) you'll see that what you dismiss as "identity politics" is very much related to those issues. But first, you need to know what politics is. Politics is the fight over the distribution of power in society[1]. Power[2] is the most important concept in the social sciences, and is roughly described as influence. When you study power in society (and this is what researchers in the social sciences have done for about a century now, with major advances in the past 50 years or so) you see similar structures emerge. When you recognize those structures, you'll see that what makes fighting global warming, "casteization" etc. so hard, are the very same structures that are at the heart of racism and sexism (not to be confused with xenophobia and misogyny). Those structures aren't conscious conspiracies but mere emergent properties of how power flows -- and, more importantly, aggregates -- in the complex system of human society. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)
sp332 11y ago
Your genes are like the least interesting thing about you. If you want purple hair, cool patterns on your skin, different-colored eyes, a stronger heart, a straighter nose etc etc than your "genes" say you should have, you can change it. Same with gender. Whatever you want, you can get it. Your genes don't really define what kind of person you are.
- brighteyes 11y ago
  Exactly. It's unfair to judge people on their genetics or more generally on how they were born. It might surprise us if someone identifies as something that seems "at odds" with how they were born, but if they honestly identify that way, I see no reason not to tolerate and accept them. It's a matter of basic decency.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    If someone identifies themselves as an 'Otherkin' then I feel the most humane thing to do would be to help treat them. Playing pretend only worsens their condition and reinforces the behavior. Regardless of the size of the population ("other people believe they are dragons too!") doesn't make it "right" anymore than a majority of a population being bipolar means we should stop treating bipolar disorder. Same goes for gender dysphoria. To me, "basic decency" would be helping to treat their gender dysphoria and not encourage it. Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, with regret of the surgery itself not being uncommon [0]. Even in areas where the social stigma of being transexual isn't anything near what is in the US (ie. Sweden). That isn't helping these people, it's hurting them. Basic decency tells me I shouldn't hurt people - I should help them. Even if they don't "feel like I'm helping them" (eg. intervening for a drug addict). Sometimes what is in someone's best interest isn't necessarily what they think they want as sometimes what people think they want or say they want isn't really what they want; as UX research alone shows [1]. "They are judging the evidence presented to them based on a model of reality, a map that they’ve used their entire lives, and you can’t just tell someone that his or her map is of a fantasy realm that doesn’t exist and expect them to respond positively. You can’t just ask a person like that to throw away that map and start over, especially if they’ve yet to realize it is just a map, and their beliefs are only models." - [2] Links are to blogs - as the blogs link to a multitude of studies/sources themselves: [0] http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing... [1] http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-you-what-they-want http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-yo... [2] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the-psychology-of-forming-keeping-and-sometimes-changing-our-beliefs/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the...
pron 11y ago
Science says nothing about identity being set in stone, at least not in the sense you hint it does. Our brain's capacity for universal computation far exceeds any genetic variation. Always look for effect sizes. What science sometimes says is that there are some statistically significant differences between averages of some property among different populations, but you'll always find that the variance within each population is much larger than the effect size. So actually, popular opinion is very much in agreement with science in this case.
meatysnapper 11y ago
I am transracial. Although I'm actually a short white guy, I feel like I am actually a 6'2" Chinese man. If Bruce Jenner can be a woman, I can be Chinese.
- brighteyes 11y ago
  You are mocking transracial people, but they honestly do identify as another race. You are just joking about doing so. The same for transgender people. They honestly identify as another gender, and we should accept them as that gender. Accepting people doesn't cost us anything.
  - meatysnapper 11y ago
    Yes, I am. I mock all stupid, irrational beliefs; accepting these beliefs harms us (see Sam Harris for more detail). Should a trans-Jew be allowed the right of return? Should a trans-Caucasian be not stopped and frisk by police? Should a trans-African American be given preferential treatment in college admissions? Furthermore, should my drivers license affect my "born" height, or my trans-height? If someone does this sort of thing, they should be mocked incessantly until they stop and find something more productive to do.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Do you think mocking people is an effective way to change behaviour? Or do you think it just entrenches that behaviour deeper?
DanBC 11y ago
We've only just allowed gay people to get married. Black people, women, gay and trans people are all routinely predjudiced against, and sometimes subjected to violence (even to the point of death) just for being who they are. It's not particularly surprising that people wanting to transition keep quiet about it. (I don't think your post deserved a downvote.)

venomsnake 11y ago

Well identity politics is a great way to make a lot of noise while the real issues go unattended (whether on purpose or not).

JesperRavn 11y ago
By what mechanism does this work? We can trace the history of identity politics, from 60's and 70's counterculture, Marxist academics, feminism, until it became academic mainstream. If this was on purpose, how did it happen? If not, how is it relevant anyway? Presumably if you can make a compelling case that what you consider to be the real issues are more important, people will make a rational choice to focus more on them.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Lets start with global warming, 8 year global economic depression, the destruction of the ecosystem and the fact that we are in the middle of an extinction even. Also the global geopolitics going to hell is vaguely important too. I would also add the incoming caste-ization of the society as a problem too. It is not on purpose, but it is convenient noise making. We all will be equal in the grave. Lets work on postponing that moment.
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    You are totally avoiding the argument by throwing in "convenient". Either people are simply choosing to focus on what are to you the wrong problems, or people's focus is being intentionally shifted away from the wrong problems. If you want to argue for the latter, you need to explain how it is happening.
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      The mechanism is easy - identity turns us into pavlov's dog - the brain shuts down. Media know that this generate traffic and outrage so it is easy money for them. And a person has so much attention per day. So we are being fed bite sized little controversies every day.
  - pron 11y ago
    If you were only a bit more sophisticated in your thought (or knowledgeable in the issues you've raised) you'll see that what you dismiss as "identity politics" is very much related to those issues. But first, you need to know what politics is. Politics is the fight over the distribution of power in society[1]. Power[2] is the most important concept in the social sciences, and is roughly described as influence. When you study power in society (and this is what researchers in the social sciences have done for about a century now, with major advances in the past 50 years or so) you see similar structures emerge. When you recognize those structures, you'll see that what makes fighting global warming, "casteization" etc. so hard, are the very same structures that are at the heart of racism and sexism (not to be confused with xenophobia and misogyny). Those structures aren't conscious conspiracies but mere emergent properties of how power flows -- and, more importantly, aggregates -- in the complex system of human society. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

sp332 11y ago

Your genes are like the least interesting thing about you. If you want purple hair, cool patterns on your skin, different-colored eyes, a stronger heart, a straighter nose etc etc than your "genes" say you should have, you can change it. Same with gender. Whatever you want, you can get it. Your genes don't really define what kind of person you are.

brighteyes 11y ago
Exactly. It's unfair to judge people on their genetics or more generally on how they were born. It might surprise us if someone identifies as something that seems "at odds" with how they were born, but if they honestly identify that way, I see no reason not to tolerate and accept them. It's a matter of basic decency.
- Nadya 11y ago
  If someone identifies themselves as an 'Otherkin' then I feel the most humane thing to do would be to help treat them. Playing pretend only worsens their condition and reinforces the behavior. Regardless of the size of the population ("other people believe they are dragons too!") doesn't make it "right" anymore than a majority of a population being bipolar means we should stop treating bipolar disorder. Same goes for gender dysphoria. To me, "basic decency" would be helping to treat their gender dysphoria and not encourage it. Gender reassignment surgery (encouraging gender dysphoria by helping them "become" the other gender) leads to an increased risk of suicide and depression, with regret of the surgery itself not being uncommon [0]. Even in areas where the social stigma of being transexual isn't anything near what is in the US (ie. Sweden). That isn't helping these people, it's hurting them. Basic decency tells me I shouldn't hurt people - I should help them. Even if they don't "feel like I'm helping them" (eg. intervening for a drug addict). Sometimes what is in someone's best interest isn't necessarily what they think they want as sometimes what people think they want or say they want isn't really what they want; as UX research alone shows [1]. "They are judging the evidence presented to them based on a model of reality, a map that they’ve used their entire lives, and you can’t just tell someone that his or her map is of a fantasy realm that doesn’t exist and expect them to respond positively. You can’t just ask a person like that to throw away that map and start over, especially if they’ve yet to realize it is just a map, and their beliefs are only models." - [2] Links are to blogs - as the blogs link to a multitude of studies/sources themselves: [0] http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing... [1] http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-you-what-they-want http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-yo... [2] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the-psychology-of-forming-keeping-and-sometimes-changing-our-beliefs/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2014/09/30/yanss-podcast-033-the...

pron 11y ago

Science says nothing about identity being set in stone, at least not in the sense you hint it does. Our brain's capacity for universal computation far exceeds any genetic variation. Always look for effect sizes. What science sometimes says is that there are some statistically significant differences between averages of some property among different populations, but you'll always find that the variance within each population is much larger than the effect size. So actually, popular opinion is very much in agreement with science in this case.

meatysnapper 11y ago

I am transracial. Although I'm actually a short white guy, I feel like I am actually a 6'2" Chinese man. If Bruce Jenner can be a woman, I can be Chinese.

brighteyes 11y ago
You are mocking transracial people, but they honestly do identify as another race. You are just joking about doing so. The same for transgender people. They honestly identify as another gender, and we should accept them as that gender. Accepting people doesn't cost us anything.
- meatysnapper 11y ago
  Yes, I am. I mock all stupid, irrational beliefs; accepting these beliefs harms us (see Sam Harris for more detail). Should a trans-Jew be allowed the right of return? Should a trans-Caucasian be not stopped and frisk by police? Should a trans-African American be given preferential treatment in college admissions? Furthermore, should my drivers license affect my "born" height, or my trans-height? If someone does this sort of thing, they should be mocked incessantly until they stop and find something more productive to do.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Do you think mocking people is an effective way to change behaviour? Or do you think it just entrenches that behaviour deeper?

DanBC 11y ago

We've only just allowed gay people to get married. Black people, women, gay and trans people are all routinely predjudiced against, and sometimes subjected to violence (even to the point of death) just for being who they are. It's not particularly surprising that people wanting to transition keep quiet about it. (I don't think your post deserved a downvote.)