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and my take on people arguing for basic minimum income have not understood the human nature. communism was doomed from the beginning as they were removing all

by verinus 11y ago

and my take on people arguing for basic minimum income have not understood the human nature. communism was doomed from the beginning as they were removing all incentives to do something useful in the long therm.

dtech 11y ago
There is a huge difference between everyone gets exactly the same regardless of merit* (communism) and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income). The second doesn't disincentivize working, as you still get increased rewards if you work or work harder. * Unless you are in a position of power of course, then you deserve more.
- xienze 11y ago
  > and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income). You realize that basic income will just become another campaign promise to secure votes, right? Couple that with "I can barely live on my basic income!" sob stories and we'll quickly find that basic income won't be so "basic" given enough time.
- vidarh 11y ago
  > There is a huge difference between everyone gets exactly the same regardless of merit* (communism) Everyone getting exactly the same regardless of merit has nothing to do with communism. So much so that Marx spent a lot of time criticising this idea and tearing it totally apart whenever someone raised it (Critique of the Gotha Programme has a substantial section on this subject).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. Speaking of "removing all incentives to do something useful in the long term", this is what capitalism does today. There aren't many businesses or even people caring about long-term in their lives, because you have to pay your rent next month, you have to be competitive today, you have to reach your company's quarterly goals, etc. Competition makes things inherently short-term. UBI is a way to remove some of the pressure from general population, so you'd have an option to say "fuck it, I'm gonna do something for long-term payoff" and not starve in the process.
- koonsolo 11y ago
  > Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. How are you going to pay for UBI? With taxes. If you already receive a tax free UBI, this means the percentage of taxes on your extra income will drastically increase (with factors, not percentages). This means that when you work for someone else (sell your time/products), only a tiny percentage will go into your pocket. If daycare of your child costs $500, and your full-time job gets you $500, how many people in this situation will drop their job and become a stay at home parents?
  - splawn 11y ago
    Good point! More stay at home parents is another benefit of BI that I haven't even thought of yet. I get more sold on this idea the more I read about it.
    - koonsolo 11y ago
      Who is going to pick up the trash, bake bread, repair your car, build your house, build streets, build cars on an assembly line? Less and less people. And less people producing, means less people consuming. Your BI won't be able to support you for very long because prices will increase (less supply). It won't take long before your economy is screwed.
      - splawn 11y ago
        I thought BI was mainly a response to the question "What will we do when most menial jobs are automated with better AI?". Tech that could pick up trash, bake bread, repair your car (If owning a car even makes since at that point in the future).. etc. Honestly its all speculation right now. I think its cool that they are doing this experiment right now, but they may be jumping the gun. However, I also think its jumping the gun to assume it will never work.
        koonsolo 11y ago

by verinus 11y ago

dtech 11y ago

There is a huge difference between everyone gets exactly the same regardless of merit* (communism) and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income). The second doesn't disincentivize working, as you still get increased rewards if you work or work harder. * Unless you are in a position of power of course, then you deserve more.

xienze 11y ago
> and everyone gets a guaranteed income on which you can just barely make a living (basic income). You realize that basic income will just become another campaign promise to secure votes, right? Couple that with "I can barely live on my basic income!" sob stories and we'll quickly find that basic income won't be so "basic" given enough time.
vidarh 11y ago
> There is a huge difference between everyone gets exactly the same regardless of merit* (communism) Everyone getting exactly the same regardless of merit has nothing to do with communism. So much so that Marx spent a lot of time criticising this idea and tearing it totally apart whenever someone raised it (Critique of the Gotha Programme has a substantial section on this subject).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. Speaking of "removing all incentives to do something useful in the long term", this is what capitalism does today. There aren't many businesses or even people caring about long-term in their lives, because you have to pay your rent next month, you have to be competitive today, you have to reach your company's quarterly goals, etc. Competition makes things inherently short-term. UBI is a way to remove some of the pressure from general population, so you'd have an option to say "fuck it, I'm gonna do something for long-term payoff" and not starve in the process.

koonsolo 11y ago
> Human nature is people wanting to reap rewards for their work (that includes having private property). UBI doesn't take away that. How are you going to pay for UBI? With taxes. If you already receive a tax free UBI, this means the percentage of taxes on your extra income will drastically increase (with factors, not percentages). This means that when you work for someone else (sell your time/products), only a tiny percentage will go into your pocket. If daycare of your child costs $500, and your full-time job gets you $500, how many people in this situation will drop their job and become a stay at home parents?
- splawn 11y ago
  Good point! More stay at home parents is another benefit of BI that I haven't even thought of yet. I get more sold on this idea the more I read about it.
  - koonsolo 11y ago
    Who is going to pick up the trash, bake bread, repair your car, build your house, build streets, build cars on an assembly line? Less and less people. And less people producing, means less people consuming. Your BI won't be able to support you for very long because prices will increase (less supply). It won't take long before your economy is screwed.
    - splawn 11y ago
      I thought BI was mainly a response to the question "What will we do when most menial jobs are automated with better AI?". Tech that could pick up trash, bake bread, repair your car (If owning a car even makes since at that point in the future).. etc. Honestly its all speculation right now. I think its cool that they are doing this experiment right now, but they may be jumping the gun. However, I also think its jumping the gun to assume it will never work.
      - koonsolo 11y ago