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Craigslist is a great example of how network effects can be leveraged to form the basis for a sustainable competitive advantage. The product is an embarrassmen

Craigslist is a great example of how network effects can be leveraged to form the basis for a sustainable competitive advantage. The product is an embarrassment and yet it has users simply because it has users. Newmark knows this and that's why he sues anyone who sniffs in the general direction of his data. I think he's a self-serving fink.

teacup50 11y ago
What's so embarrassing, exactly? It doesn't follow the latest web9.0 flat^Wmaterial^Wlook-a-monkey! design trends? The interface remains usably utilitarian? They don't try to capitalize to create an uber-exit that everyone can write a congratulatory comment on YC/TechCrunch about? Great hustle Craig! Or is it just that you're of the Uber-style ethical camp that believes in disruption-through-cost-externalization? In this case, actively extracting value from Craigslist, despite their protests, and using it to undermine their business.
- methehack 11y ago
  For the record, I'm a fan of the retro design -- or I guess it's original in their case. In any case, I don't mind that. It's that the product could be better -- as in better features -- in a bout a million ways. How about notifying me when something becomes available for instance... Or showing a map view of apartment listings or heck all listings... Or a bit a zillion search possibilities...like -- here's one -- searching across a whole region or farther for a given item... Or some kind of attempt at reputation building as an option... That list took maybe 90 seconds... My theory is that they are lazy because they can afford to be and they aggressively defend their laziness by suing anyone who tries to make it better. Finks.
  - hartator 11y ago
    Have you had ever used Craiglist? Everything you say is alreaady built-in.
    - unethical_ban 11y ago
      "Nearby listings" doesn't work like I'd like it to. It'd be great to be able to choose from multiple craigslist areas and run searches on them, distinct of their proximity.
    - methehack 11y ago
      Ok it looks like after suing that poor dude, they added a map to the apartment listings finally. I stand corrected on that one. It was missing forever. I still don't see anywhere to search across regions. If you've ever tried to find a hard to find car you'd understand what I mean there. I'd like to search in, say, all of California. Can't do it. My point is that there's a lot that could be done that will not be done because they won't let people scrape even if they link back. So, for example, say I wanted to add a state-wide search. Even if all my search results pointed back to CL, CL would cease and desist me. This goes for other enhanced functionality as well. This is all legal, but see it for what it is: an aggressive use of their position to retain their position, which includes squelching any and all uses of their data. It's an anit-competitive move that let's them maintain what, in my opinion, is a very poor quality product for all the traffic and data they get.
      - makomk 11y ago
        At least in the UK version, they do have some kind of cross-region search now in the sidebar. (Which is pretty much essential here, because their region boundaries don't make much sense and people don't always agree on what region they're in.)
        albedoa 11y ago
        That's great, and if it's essential for the UK, imagine how needed it must be in the US. The UK has 243,610 square kilometers. California alone has 423,970.
      - reagency 11y ago
        Craigslist allowed third party to map listings 10 years ago, and CL http://www.housingmaps.com/ http://www.housingmaps.com/ CL makes no effort to stop people from publishing or viewing ads on other sites. Many multi-posting tools exist, especially for housing.
  - em3rgent0rdr 11y ago
    "I'm a fan of the retro design...It's that the product could be better" Agreed. I gave up on my first experience trying to rent an apartment after getting obviously sketchy responses emails from my inquiries, that was after I had spent hours sifting through the listings and only messaging the few listing that didn't look like scams. It's amazing how difficult it was to find where the approximate location, which definitely would have helped with some very simple non-js map. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a valid description of what I'm looking for.
- unethical_ban 11y ago
  They have made lots of functional changes in the past two years. Better image presentation; more sorts and filters specific to the category browsed. But before 2013 or so, it really was a POS 2000-era site. craiglook and padmapper, and others that put useful UIs over the dataset, did a real service to the platform and Craigslist destroys them.
- TechieKid 11y ago
  Did you read TFA? They always directed users back to the original Craigslist posting, ergo, not undermining CL's business.
- hueving 11y ago
  How is Uber disrupting through cost externalization? They disrupt through regulatory arbitrage. They aren't dumping costs onto society.
jacobolus 11y ago
> The product is an embarrassment and yet it has users simply because it has users The product is bare bones, but it works just as well as it ever has, which is a heck of a lot better than many web applications from the last 10 years, loaded down with animations and piles of tracking javascript and auto-playing video ads and broken reimplementations of standard browser features. Personally I find it works better for me than most google web properties since about 2008 (e.g. the new versions of gmail and google maps), better than recent versions of facebook, better than yelp, better than a lot of current newspaper websites, etc. There’s something to be said for plain html websites. I do wish craigslist would let other people scrape their pages and provide alternative user interfaces though. Pad mapper was a great help when I needed to look for an apartment several years ago.
- methehack 11y ago
  I'll grant you that the basic functionality works. It ought to given that they've barely changed it in like 15 years. It's fine if they don't want to change it, but they've stifled -- through legal channels -- many frustrated attempts to enhance the product -- like cease and desists to dude's doing simple mapping visualizations for example. I think they're bullies with their position and it has served no one but craigslist. The network effects they wield create monopoly-like conditions and they use the court's to retain them. [edit for grammar which alas is not quite perfect yet]
  - yo-code-sucks 11y ago
    Craigslist is the one serving the content, and Content is not free, so that point is a bit of shit.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    Interesting. The product belongs to CN. If he doesn't want to "enhance" it, what gives anyone else the right to think they can step in and do it? If Toyota didn't offer a red Camry, do you think someone should be able to set up their own robot at Toyota to paint certain Camrys red? If people are not satisfied with CL, they should build a better CL from scratch and stay away from CN's product.
discardorama 11y ago
> The product is an embarrassment and yet it has users simply because it has users. Have you checked CL personals lately? All you'll find are chirping crickets.
pbreit 11y ago
Have you ever wondered if its "embarrassing-ness" is partly (or more) responsible for its long term success?
tptacek 11y ago
If you're an entrepreneur, I would respectfully suggest you worry a little bit about the thought pattern that would make you say that Craigslist's "product" is an "embarrassment" and that it "has users simply because it has users". Craigslist's product is its userbase. It is by all accounts a fabulously successful product. You want be able to see past the AngularJS and D3 and iOS-first and responsive UX stuff to the meat of what a real value proposition is. You don't want to be held hostage to fashion.

teacup50 11y ago

What's so embarrassing, exactly? It doesn't follow the latest web9.0 flat^Wmaterial^Wlook-a-monkey! design trends? The interface remains usably utilitarian? They don't try to capitalize to create an uber-exit that everyone can write a congratulatory comment on YC/TechCrunch about? Great hustle Craig! Or is it just that you're of the Uber-style ethical camp that believes in disruption-through-cost-externalization? In this case, actively extracting value from Craigslist, despite their protests, and using it to undermine their business.

methehack 11y ago
For the record, I'm a fan of the retro design -- or I guess it's original in their case. In any case, I don't mind that. It's that the product could be better -- as in better features -- in a bout a million ways. How about notifying me when something becomes available for instance... Or showing a map view of apartment listings or heck all listings... Or a bit a zillion search possibilities...like -- here's one -- searching across a whole region or farther for a given item... Or some kind of attempt at reputation building as an option... That list took maybe 90 seconds... My theory is that they are lazy because they can afford to be and they aggressively defend their laziness by suing anyone who tries to make it better. Finks.
- hartator 11y ago
  Have you had ever used Craiglist? Everything you say is alreaady built-in.
  - unethical_ban 11y ago
    "Nearby listings" doesn't work like I'd like it to. It'd be great to be able to choose from multiple craigslist areas and run searches on them, distinct of their proximity.
  - methehack 11y ago
    Ok it looks like after suing that poor dude, they added a map to the apartment listings finally. I stand corrected on that one. It was missing forever. I still don't see anywhere to search across regions. If you've ever tried to find a hard to find car you'd understand what I mean there. I'd like to search in, say, all of California. Can't do it. My point is that there's a lot that could be done that will not be done because they won't let people scrape even if they link back. So, for example, say I wanted to add a state-wide search. Even if all my search results pointed back to CL, CL would cease and desist me. This goes for other enhanced functionality as well. This is all legal, but see it for what it is: an aggressive use of their position to retain their position, which includes squelching any and all uses of their data. It's an anit-competitive move that let's them maintain what, in my opinion, is a very poor quality product for all the traffic and data they get.
    - makomk 11y ago
      At least in the UK version, they do have some kind of cross-region search now in the sidebar. (Which is pretty much essential here, because their region boundaries don't make much sense and people don't always agree on what region they're in.)
      - albedoa 11y ago
        That's great, and if it's essential for the UK, imagine how needed it must be in the US. The UK has 243,610 square kilometers. California alone has 423,970.
    - reagency 11y ago
      Craigslist allowed third party to map listings 10 years ago, and CL http://www.housingmaps.com/ http://www.housingmaps.com/ CL makes no effort to stop people from publishing or viewing ads on other sites. Many multi-posting tools exist, especially for housing.
- em3rgent0rdr 11y ago
  "I'm a fan of the retro design...It's that the product could be better" Agreed. I gave up on my first experience trying to rent an apartment after getting obviously sketchy responses emails from my inquiries, that was after I had spent hours sifting through the listings and only messaging the few listing that didn't look like scams. It's amazing how difficult it was to find where the approximate location, which definitely would have helped with some very simple non-js map. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a valid description of what I'm looking for.
unethical_ban 11y ago
They have made lots of functional changes in the past two years. Better image presentation; more sorts and filters specific to the category browsed. But before 2013 or so, it really was a POS 2000-era site. craiglook and padmapper, and others that put useful UIs over the dataset, did a real service to the platform and Craigslist destroys them.
TechieKid 11y ago
Did you read TFA? They always directed users back to the original Craigslist posting, ergo, not undermining CL's business.
hueving 11y ago
How is Uber disrupting through cost externalization? They disrupt through regulatory arbitrage. They aren't dumping costs onto society.

jacobolus 11y ago

> The product is an embarrassment and yet it has users simply because it has users The product is bare bones, but it works just as well as it ever has, which is a heck of a lot better than many web applications from the last 10 years, loaded down with animations and piles of tracking javascript and auto-playing video ads and broken reimplementations of standard browser features. Personally I find it works better for me than most google web properties since about 2008 (e.g. the new versions of gmail and google maps), better than recent versions of facebook, better than yelp, better than a lot of current newspaper websites, etc. There’s something to be said for plain html websites. I do wish craigslist would let other people scrape their pages and provide alternative user interfaces though. Pad mapper was a great help when I needed to look for an apartment several years ago.

methehack 11y ago
I'll grant you that the basic functionality works. It ought to given that they've barely changed it in like 15 years. It's fine if they don't want to change it, but they've stifled -- through legal channels -- many frustrated attempts to enhance the product -- like cease and desists to dude's doing simple mapping visualizations for example. I think they're bullies with their position and it has served no one but craigslist. The network effects they wield create monopoly-like conditions and they use the court's to retain them. [edit for grammar which alas is not quite perfect yet]
- yo-code-sucks 11y ago
  Craigslist is the one serving the content, and Content is not free, so that point is a bit of shit.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  Interesting. The product belongs to CN. If he doesn't want to "enhance" it, what gives anyone else the right to think they can step in and do it? If Toyota didn't offer a red Camry, do you think someone should be able to set up their own robot at Toyota to paint certain Camrys red? If people are not satisfied with CL, they should build a better CL from scratch and stay away from CN's product.

discardorama 11y ago

> The product is an embarrassment and yet it has users simply because it has users. Have you checked CL personals lately? All you'll find are chirping crickets.

pbreit 11y ago

Have you ever wondered if its "embarrassing-ness" is partly (or more) responsible for its long term success?

tptacek 11y ago

If you're an entrepreneur, I would respectfully suggest you worry a little bit about the thought pattern that would make you say that Craigslist's "product" is an "embarrassment" and that it "has users simply because it has users". Craigslist's product is its userbase. It is by all accounts a fabulously successful product. You want be able to see past the AngularJS and D3 and iOS-first and responsive UX stuff to the meat of what a real value proposition is. You don't want to be held hostage to fashion.