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The whole story of Greece is not very nice. Many sides have had their share in this. The Greek government of this time has made some severe errors. But I see a

The whole story of Greece is not very nice. Many sides have had their share in this. The Greek government of this time has made some severe errors. But I see an even bigger share in the EU (also German) politicians of that time (before the Euro was installed). It is a fact, that those politicians sold the Euro to the German population (I guess to others the same way) with the argument, that no country will ever have to pay for an other Euro country. They said, that there are so many security measures installed ... But the weakest spot in those "security measures" where the politicians themselves. They wanted Greece to be inside the Euro, so they turned a blind eye to any warning signs. Of course they also turned a blind eye to every other country, because according to the "security measures" that where announced, nearly no country would have got the Euro ... (even Germany violated the terms) So, I see the biggest failure in the politicians, that just wanted to have this adventure -- without really managing the risks .... It is really an ugly business, and we will see, where all this disaster (the Euro) leads us to. In now 5 years of so-called crisis-management, they even did not manage to "rescue" Greece ... (they just prolonged the pain) and other countries can still become in trouble soon. With a bigger country, the troubles will be proliferated. For me, the whole case is a (n other) portent of the incapacity of today's politicians.

secfirstmd 11y ago
Also, the fact that France and Germany both broke the 3% deficit rule that they had so strongly insisted on. They never had to pay a penalty for this. So there was one rule for the big countries and another for everyone else. As I an Irish person, it makes me a bit bitter that ultimately part of whole problem for our economic recession was the Euro interest rates were ultimately too low for the economy we were running in the Celtic Tiger. Around 2003 or so onwards, we needed a higher interest rate to take the steam out of our economy. However, Germany and France had done pretty poorly for so long, we were locked into an interest rate and currency which was being dictated by them. Ultimately only we are to blame (no one put a gun to our heads and asked us to play real-life Monopoly) and we won't shirk it like other countries (even though we should have thrown a few of the banks and bond-holders to the wall) but it irritates me that these fact is not mentioned more often.
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  New York has the same currency as Alabama. The US has no and will never have a unified economy and neither will we. We have to learn from our mistakes and install some systems to actually enforce these laws. Unfortunately those people that invaded your island back in the days hinder us bit :)
  - secfirstmd 11y ago
    The Vikings! Yes they are a pain in the ass :)
iamcurious 11y ago
>For me, the whole case is a portent of the incapacity of today's politicians. Yes. Hilbert said "Physics is too hard for physicists.". Politics is many order of magnitude harder. I would give one arm for reducing the difficulty of politics to even chemistry hard.
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  Maybe chemists would be better politicians. Maybe nearly any educated person ...
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Worth noting that Angela Merkel has a doctorate in quantum chemistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel#Background_and_early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel#Background_and_e...
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    There's this saying, "Doctors bury their mistakes, architects cover theirs with vines, teachers send theirs into politics."
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  This wasn't Bethe? Source?
stretchwithme 11y ago
If it weren't possible to impose obligations on taxpayers, this adventure would never have happened. By the way, using a common currency does not require that the debts of those using it should be the responsibility of all who are using that currency. California's debts are California's problem and the problem of those who buy its bonds. Other states aren't obligated to bail it out.
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  I also do not fully understand, why this is so. But before the Euro started our politicians drummed the big drums for it and repeated like machine guns, that such a situation could never, never ever (I swear!) happen ... But after Greece nearly went bankrupt in 2010, I guess, our chancellor said that this would be the "one and only alternative". The problem is (as much I understood), that when one Euro country is going bankrupt, this will damage the confidence in the currency as such. But I don't fully understand the reasoning, as I said. It also could be, that it was the "one and only alternative", because some big German banks would have been severely damaged back then (back then, they held a big amount of the Greek debts) ... Today, only the tax payers will be damaged, what is not so bad ...
- kansface 11y ago
  This isn't exactly the case - see Puerto Rico. For that matter, the debt (of Greece/Puerto Rico) is owned by other states/countries either directly or indirectly.
  - stretchwithme 11y ago
    http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/01/investing/puerto-rico-bond-holders/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/01/investing/puerto-rico-bond-h...
- sampo 11y ago
  > California's debts are California's problem and the problem of those who buy its bonds. French and German banks had bough Greek bonds. France and Germany didn't want their banks to default, even though the banks had made these bad investments.
johansch 11y ago
One actor in this ugly story has demonstrably been repeatedly deceitful. We all know which one I'm talking about, even the leftist who can invent apologies for pretty much anything (I admire that "quality" in a way) do.
- fredkbloggs 11y ago
  The borrowers were greedy, so they hired sharpers to help them borrow money they knew they couldn't repay. The lenders were greedy, so they looked the other way and hoped their high-risk bets would pay off before things went south. Deceit isn't really relevant here. The lenders consisted of hedge funds, major banks, large pension funds, and other financial entities. We're not talking about retail investors here, but people who had plenty of experience in sniffing out this kind of fraud. The bottom line is that they didn't bother: they looked at the eurozone membership and bloated ratings and pulled the trigger for an extra few basis points. After that went to hell, the official-sector lenders, who employ endless ranks of PhDs and ex-bankers to help them set policy and make financing decisions, stepped in and lent the Greeks even more money on ultra-sweetheart terms. Now that money is not going to be repaid, either. Who would have expected that outcome? Oh, right... everyone. Really, at what point are we supposed to feel sorry for any of these people? I can't. With the exception of whatever tiny number of Greek citizens have steadfastly and publicly refused to support their government's choices, not only today but dating back to the go-go 2000s, every single player in this pathetic drama has gotten what they deserve. You can try to make this into some BS class-warfare thing, you can try to make it about left-right or broken EU politics or any number of other things, but what it really boils down to is persistent, pernicious greed coupled with persistent stupidity of spectacular magnitude. There's nothing else here, nothing to debate or cast aspersions over. Just greed and stupidity. Don't try to make it about anything else.
  - harrumph 11y ago
    > With the exception of whatever tiny number of Greek citizens have steadfastly and publicly refused to support their government's choices That is exactly who the current Greek Government is.
allendoerfer 11y ago
I think what you said is true. Of course it was a mistake to let Greece in that early. Nevertheless I think that overall they made the right choice. These decisions ware made immediately after the cold war ended by representatives that were raised by parents that killed each other in a world war. European integration and the Euro are highly connected with the 2 + 4 talks [0] and German unity [1]. Europe would look very different if these politicians had not taken the risk and united it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement... [1]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-unity-was-the-deutsche-mark-sacrificed-for-reunification-a-719940.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-uni...
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  I am not so optimistic. Might be, that part of it was because of the will to unite Europe, but it was from the beginning at least "well meant, but very badly executed". What we have seen in the last five years, was growing resentment between Southern- and Middle-Europe because of the Euro. The "unity" of Europe is more endangered by the Euro, than rescued, as much I see now. Idealistic goals can not make up for lies (about the security of the Euro, where no measures where really taken serious) and extreme poor execution. Some countries where taken in the Euro, just because some countries wanted to counter the influence of Germany. That is not idealistic, but purely old, dirty power politics.

secfirstmd 11y ago

Also, the fact that France and Germany both broke the 3% deficit rule that they had so strongly insisted on. They never had to pay a penalty for this. So there was one rule for the big countries and another for everyone else. As I an Irish person, it makes me a bit bitter that ultimately part of whole problem for our economic recession was the Euro interest rates were ultimately too low for the economy we were running in the Celtic Tiger. Around 2003 or so onwards, we needed a higher interest rate to take the steam out of our economy. However, Germany and France had done pretty poorly for so long, we were locked into an interest rate and currency which was being dictated by them. Ultimately only we are to blame (no one put a gun to our heads and asked us to play real-life Monopoly) and we won't shirk it like other countries (even though we should have thrown a few of the banks and bond-holders to the wall) but it irritates me that these fact is not mentioned more often.

allendoerfer 11y ago
New York has the same currency as Alabama. The US has no and will never have a unified economy and neither will we. We have to learn from our mistakes and install some systems to actually enforce these laws. Unfortunately those people that invaded your island back in the days hinder us bit :)
- secfirstmd 11y ago
  The Vikings! Yes they are a pain in the ass :)

iamcurious 11y ago

>For me, the whole case is a portent of the incapacity of today's politicians. Yes. Hilbert said "Physics is too hard for physicists.". Politics is many order of magnitude harder. I would give one arm for reducing the difficulty of politics to even chemistry hard.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago
Maybe chemists would be better politicians. Maybe nearly any educated person ...
- arethuza 11y ago
  Worth noting that Angela Merkel has a doctorate in quantum chemistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel#Background_and_early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel#Background_and_e...
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  There's this saying, "Doctors bury their mistakes, architects cover theirs with vines, teachers send theirs into politics."
selimthegrim 11y ago
This wasn't Bethe? Source?

stretchwithme 11y ago

If it weren't possible to impose obligations on taxpayers, this adventure would never have happened. By the way, using a common currency does not require that the debts of those using it should be the responsibility of all who are using that currency. California's debts are California's problem and the problem of those who buy its bonds. Other states aren't obligated to bail it out.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago
I also do not fully understand, why this is so. But before the Euro started our politicians drummed the big drums for it and repeated like machine guns, that such a situation could never, never ever (I swear!) happen ... But after Greece nearly went bankrupt in 2010, I guess, our chancellor said that this would be the "one and only alternative". The problem is (as much I understood), that when one Euro country is going bankrupt, this will damage the confidence in the currency as such. But I don't fully understand the reasoning, as I said. It also could be, that it was the "one and only alternative", because some big German banks would have been severely damaged back then (back then, they held a big amount of the Greek debts) ... Today, only the tax payers will be damaged, what is not so bad ...
kansface 11y ago
This isn't exactly the case - see Puerto Rico. For that matter, the debt (of Greece/Puerto Rico) is owned by other states/countries either directly or indirectly.
- stretchwithme 11y ago
  http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/01/investing/puerto-rico-bond-holders/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/01/investing/puerto-rico-bond-h...
sampo 11y ago
> California's debts are California's problem and the problem of those who buy its bonds. French and German banks had bough Greek bonds. France and Germany didn't want their banks to default, even though the banks had made these bad investments.

johansch 11y ago

One actor in this ugly story has demonstrably been repeatedly deceitful. We all know which one I'm talking about, even the leftist who can invent apologies for pretty much anything (I admire that "quality" in a way) do.

fredkbloggs 11y ago
The borrowers were greedy, so they hired sharpers to help them borrow money they knew they couldn't repay. The lenders were greedy, so they looked the other way and hoped their high-risk bets would pay off before things went south. Deceit isn't really relevant here. The lenders consisted of hedge funds, major banks, large pension funds, and other financial entities. We're not talking about retail investors here, but people who had plenty of experience in sniffing out this kind of fraud. The bottom line is that they didn't bother: they looked at the eurozone membership and bloated ratings and pulled the trigger for an extra few basis points. After that went to hell, the official-sector lenders, who employ endless ranks of PhDs and ex-bankers to help them set policy and make financing decisions, stepped in and lent the Greeks even more money on ultra-sweetheart terms. Now that money is not going to be repaid, either. Who would have expected that outcome? Oh, right... everyone. Really, at what point are we supposed to feel sorry for any of these people? I can't. With the exception of whatever tiny number of Greek citizens have steadfastly and publicly refused to support their government's choices, not only today but dating back to the go-go 2000s, every single player in this pathetic drama has gotten what they deserve. You can try to make this into some BS class-warfare thing, you can try to make it about left-right or broken EU politics or any number of other things, but what it really boils down to is persistent, pernicious greed coupled with persistent stupidity of spectacular magnitude. There's nothing else here, nothing to debate or cast aspersions over. Just greed and stupidity. Don't try to make it about anything else.
- harrumph 11y ago
  > With the exception of whatever tiny number of Greek citizens have steadfastly and publicly refused to support their government's choices That is exactly who the current Greek Government is.

allendoerfer 11y ago

I think what you said is true. Of course it was a mistake to let Greece in that early. Nevertheless I think that overall they made the right choice. These decisions ware made immediately after the cold war ended by representatives that were raised by parents that killed each other in a world war. European integration and the Euro are highly connected with the 2 + 4 talks [0] and German unity [1]. Europe would look very different if these politicians had not taken the risk and united it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement... [1]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-unity-was-the-deutsche-mark-sacrificed-for-reunification-a-719940.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-uni...

PythonicAlpha 11y ago
I am not so optimistic. Might be, that part of it was because of the will to unite Europe, but it was from the beginning at least "well meant, but very badly executed". What we have seen in the last five years, was growing resentment between Southern- and Middle-Europe because of the Euro. The "unity" of Europe is more endangered by the Euro, than rescued, as much I see now. Idealistic goals can not make up for lies (about the security of the Euro, where no measures where really taken serious) and extreme poor execution. Some countries where taken in the Euro, just because some countries wanted to counter the influence of Germany. That is not idealistic, but purely old, dirty power politics.