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Is this really about terrorism? I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. Why would they want to do th

Is this really about terrorism? I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. Why would they want to do this? My feeling is so that they can keep control of public order. It's a mystery to me why there hasn't been more public activism around unemployment levels and wealth equality in Europe so far. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/01/europe-young-people-rioting-denied-education-jobs http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/01/europe-...

toyg 11y ago
> I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. Pedophilia failed* so they moved on to the next excuse. If that fails, they'll probably use drug trafficking. * well, sort of: they did get DNS bans in place and the opt-in porn firewall.
- crottypeter 11y ago
  You mean opt-out.
  - toyg 11y ago
    As an existing Virgin broadband customer, I think I was given the option to enable it or not. I don't know how it works for new customers.
    - ionised 11y ago
      I was an existing Virgin Fibre when these measures were implemented and I had to opt out on my Virgin account web page.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  You are also forgetting one of the biggest successes; they convinced most all of society to agree to not only ban data, but to see possession of that data as one of the worst wrongs a person can commit. The notion that changing the pattern of bits on your hard drive can be worse than killing someone has now been driven to the core of our society. And as for the US, drug trafficking has worked great for the most part. For example the concept that intent to distribute can be determined simply by possessing more than some arbitrary amount, with the prosecutor not needing to show any other evidence, is a disastrous development. Civil forfeiture, where one's property is charged with a crime, is also another great development for them, though it is a hand they are beginning to overplay. LGBT individuals should count themselves very lucky. Had they delayed their rights movement by a few decades, they may have been hunted down (imagine if the social hatred of homosexuals that was present in the early 20th century was combined with the modern day power to pry into people's lives).
madaxe_again 11y ago
I'm a firm believer that the whole "Terrorism" illusion has been foisted in order to maintain control of increasingly uncontrollable populations (as information is a powerful weapon). I mean, Germany, 1930's, they deflected from the economic woes inflicted by reparations by banging on about communist and jewish terror - and that's just one, small, well-known recent example. This tactic has been applied over and over since hierarchical societies emerged - i.e. forever. I'm sure tribal big men thousands of years ago would go "hey, don't look at me, I didn't make the yams not grow this year, it's those fuckers across the valley, worshipping the wrong gods! Let's get 'em!!!". Same same.
- cstross 11y ago
  I'm a firm believer that the whole "Terrorism" illusion has been foisted in order to maintain control of increasingly uncontrollable populations (as information is a powerful weapon). Note the way voting patterns are trending in the UK, long term, with both major parties from the historical duopoly now in decline and more people voting for a minority party than for the eventual government. Note the way the UK is being marketed as a hub for international finance and London turned into a dormitory town for global billionaires. Every government since Bloody Sunday has been worried about public insurrection somewhere, to some extent: arguably the UK is in a long-term trend towards what used to be called a pre-revolutionary situation, as the interests of the general populace and the elite diverge. (The real solution is a sustained dose of Piketty's proposed wealth tax, and any other measures necessary to reduce the widening Gini coefficient, but neither the Conservative or Labour parties, which are both in hock to the capital accumulators, are able to address the problem effectively.)
  - SixSigma 11y ago
    Britain has an offshore tax haven in a square mile of its capital city and it's not new or even modern. http://treasureislands.org/ http://treasureislands.org/
- richmarr 11y ago
  Well you can hardly blame them, the yam gods have really similar names and a downright byzantine rota system.
stephengillie 11y ago
The chilling effect of surveillance is somewhat well known. How much less likely are we to openly discuss activism on various matters if we're afraid of an ambiguous punishment? Even the humorous notion that we might say something innocuous online or in email and become a member of the "always randomly screened" club haunts us as we conduct our daily affairs. We reconsider word choice, phrasing, and intent, so a semantic word filter won't pick us out of the crowd.
- batou 11y ago
  Why has everyone forgotten the pub? Many revolutions and grand discoveries started in pubs. I'm starting to think that Simon and Garfunkel's Sound of Silence was a warning about now.
- userbinator 11y ago
  The solution is for everyone to "increase the noise", so the filters won't be able to distinguish any signal. There is safety in numbers, but the problem is that most people have been gradually conditioned to behave otherwise, and thus it'll require a very large sudden change to work.
yAnonymous 11y ago
It's about protecting the 1% from the 99%.
- nailer 11y ago
  To be honest I'm fairly sure the overwhelming fixation on the very rich and very poor is why we don't have a Labour government and thus have to put up with these laws.
  - batou 11y ago
    Labour are bound by the same immortal desire to control lives. Don't pretend they are a contrast.
  - yAnonymous 11y ago
    They were in charge when most of this started. Are you naive, a troll, or a paid shill?
    - nailer 11y ago
      For criticising both Labour and the Conservatives? I was wrong about Labour being any better (see my other post) but the conspiracy theories are unnecessary and unhelpful.
      - yAnonymous 11y ago
        It's not a conspiracy theory, but common sense. Which you seem to be lacking, seeing as you thought one of those parties was actually decent.
        anonbanker 11y ago
        please don't make these kind of posts on HN. "common sense" is usually defined as "whatever I believe is the truth" in the context of an argument. Combine this with the personal attack you made, and you have yourself a terrible post.
DanBC 11y ago
You describe a lack of public disorder. You then suggest that public disorder is a reason for increased surveillance. I'm not sure I understand how that follows?
- yAnonymous 11y ago
  Is the glass half full or half empty?
learnstats2 11y ago
If you walk through Central London you'll see public protests almost any day of the week - but they are not being reported: except minimal press when there are hundreds of thousands of protestors, and except to illustrate police confinement tactics such as kettling and arrest.
- MistahKoala 11y ago
  > but they are not being reported A consequence of > public protests almost any day of the week surely?
  - DanAndersen 11y ago
    Perhaps this is a sign of the irrelevance of most media. I've felt for a while that following the news isn't a very good use of one's time, because the news, by definition, tends to focus on what is new or unusual, suggesting that it is in fact not the norm or what is generally going on.
  - learnstats2 11y ago
    The parent commenter claimed they are not aware of much public activism, despite apparently being interested. And yet a quarter of a million protested just 10 days ago; although it is difficult to find details in traditional news sources: http://www.cityam.com/218417/end-austerity-now-protest-gathers-london-hundreds-thousands-protest-against-austerity http://www.cityam.com/218417/end-austerity-now-protest-gathe... Given this is happening, people are interested, and people don't know about it, don't you think this would be an ideal subject for the news to report on?
    - seanp2k2 11y ago
      Not when all the news is just "content" to try to get you to look at ads. What company wants their product spots running during reports on something intent on upsetting their economic power? News does not exist to report the truth anymore.
  - coldtea 11y ago
stefantalpalaru 11y ago
> Is this really about terrorism? No, it's about children. UK politicians really love children.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>Is this really about terrorism? I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. I'd go even further and say that most things related to 'terrorism' or 'protect the children' are Trojan horses to train society to be accepting of the restriction of rights 'with cause', with the 'with cause' slowly expanding over time.

toyg 11y ago

> I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. Pedophilia failed* so they moved on to the next excuse. If that fails, they'll probably use drug trafficking. * well, sort of: they did get DNS bans in place and the opt-in porn firewall.

crottypeter 11y ago
You mean opt-out.
- toyg 11y ago
  As an existing Virgin broadband customer, I think I was given the option to enable it or not. I don't know how it works for new customers.
  - ionised 11y ago
    I was an existing Virgin Fibre when these measures were implemented and I had to opt out on my Virgin account web page.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
You are also forgetting one of the biggest successes; they convinced most all of society to agree to not only ban data, but to see possession of that data as one of the worst wrongs a person can commit. The notion that changing the pattern of bits on your hard drive can be worse than killing someone has now been driven to the core of our society. And as for the US, drug trafficking has worked great for the most part. For example the concept that intent to distribute can be determined simply by possessing more than some arbitrary amount, with the prosecutor not needing to show any other evidence, is a disastrous development. Civil forfeiture, where one's property is charged with a crime, is also another great development for them, though it is a hand they are beginning to overplay. LGBT individuals should count themselves very lucky. Had they delayed their rights movement by a few decades, they may have been hunted down (imagine if the social hatred of homosexuals that was present in the early 20th century was combined with the modern day power to pry into people's lives).

madaxe_again 11y ago

I'm a firm believer that the whole "Terrorism" illusion has been foisted in order to maintain control of increasingly uncontrollable populations (as information is a powerful weapon). I mean, Germany, 1930's, they deflected from the economic woes inflicted by reparations by banging on about communist and jewish terror - and that's just one, small, well-known recent example. This tactic has been applied over and over since hierarchical societies emerged - i.e. forever. I'm sure tribal big men thousands of years ago would go "hey, don't look at me, I didn't make the yams not grow this year, it's those fuckers across the valley, worshipping the wrong gods! Let's get 'em!!!". Same same.

cstross 11y ago
I'm a firm believer that the whole "Terrorism" illusion has been foisted in order to maintain control of increasingly uncontrollable populations (as information is a powerful weapon). Note the way voting patterns are trending in the UK, long term, with both major parties from the historical duopoly now in decline and more people voting for a minority party than for the eventual government. Note the way the UK is being marketed as a hub for international finance and London turned into a dormitory town for global billionaires. Every government since Bloody Sunday has been worried about public insurrection somewhere, to some extent: arguably the UK is in a long-term trend towards what used to be called a pre-revolutionary situation, as the interests of the general populace and the elite diverge. (The real solution is a sustained dose of Piketty's proposed wealth tax, and any other measures necessary to reduce the widening Gini coefficient, but neither the Conservative or Labour parties, which are both in hock to the capital accumulators, are able to address the problem effectively.)
- SixSigma 11y ago
  Britain has an offshore tax haven in a square mile of its capital city and it's not new or even modern. http://treasureislands.org/ http://treasureislands.org/
richmarr 11y ago
Well you can hardly blame them, the yam gods have really similar names and a downright byzantine rota system.

stephengillie 11y ago

The chilling effect of surveillance is somewhat well known. How much less likely are we to openly discuss activism on various matters if we're afraid of an ambiguous punishment? Even the humorous notion that we might say something innocuous online or in email and become a member of the "always randomly screened" club haunts us as we conduct our daily affairs. We reconsider word choice, phrasing, and intent, so a semantic word filter won't pick us out of the crowd.

batou 11y ago
Why has everyone forgotten the pub? Many revolutions and grand discoveries started in pubs. I'm starting to think that Simon and Garfunkel's Sound of Silence was a warning about now.
userbinator 11y ago
The solution is for everyone to "increase the noise", so the filters won't be able to distinguish any signal. There is safety in numbers, but the problem is that most people have been gradually conditioned to behave otherwise, and thus it'll require a very large sudden change to work.

yAnonymous 11y ago

It's about protecting the 1% from the 99%.

nailer 11y ago
To be honest I'm fairly sure the overwhelming fixation on the very rich and very poor is why we don't have a Labour government and thus have to put up with these laws.
- batou 11y ago
  Labour are bound by the same immortal desire to control lives. Don't pretend they are a contrast.
- yAnonymous 11y ago
  They were in charge when most of this started. Are you naive, a troll, or a paid shill?
  - nailer 11y ago
    For criticising both Labour and the Conservatives? I was wrong about Labour being any better (see my other post) but the conspiracy theories are unnecessary and unhelpful.
    - yAnonymous 11y ago
      It's not a conspiracy theory, but common sense. Which you seem to be lacking, seeing as you thought one of those parties was actually decent.
      - anonbanker 11y ago
        please don't make these kind of posts on HN. "common sense" is usually defined as "whatever I believe is the truth" in the context of an argument. Combine this with the personal attack you made, and you have yourself a terrible post.

DanBC 11y ago

You describe a lack of public disorder. You then suggest that public disorder is a reason for increased surveillance. I'm not sure I understand how that follows?

yAnonymous 11y ago
Is the glass half full or half empty?

learnstats2 11y ago

If you walk through Central London you'll see public protests almost any day of the week - but they are not being reported: except minimal press when there are hundreds of thousands of protestors, and except to illustrate police confinement tactics such as kettling and arrest.

MistahKoala 11y ago
> but they are not being reported A consequence of > public protests almost any day of the week surely?
- DanAndersen 11y ago
  Perhaps this is a sign of the irrelevance of most media. I've felt for a while that following the news isn't a very good use of one's time, because the news, by definition, tends to focus on what is new or unusual, suggesting that it is in fact not the norm or what is generally going on.
- learnstats2 11y ago
  The parent commenter claimed they are not aware of much public activism, despite apparently being interested. And yet a quarter of a million protested just 10 days ago; although it is difficult to find details in traditional news sources: http://www.cityam.com/218417/end-austerity-now-protest-gathers-london-hundreds-thousands-protest-against-austerity http://www.cityam.com/218417/end-austerity-now-protest-gathe... Given this is happening, people are interested, and people don't know about it, don't you think this would be an ideal subject for the news to report on?
  - seanp2k2 11y ago
    Not when all the news is just "content" to try to get you to look at ads. What company wants their product spots running during reports on something intent on upsetting their economic power? News does not exist to report the truth anymore.
- coldtea 11y ago

stefantalpalaru 11y ago

> Is this really about terrorism? No, it's about children. UK politicians really love children.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>Is this really about terrorism? I have a feeling that terrorism is the excuse being used to try and surveil the public generally. I'd go even further and say that most things related to 'terrorism' or 'protect the children' are Trojan horses to train society to be accepting of the restriction of rights 'with cause', with the 'with cause' slowly expanding over time.