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How on earth did the modern linux distro become so dependant on software from this guy, when he clearly has no real world idea of things. No wonder people are j

How on earth did the modern linux distro become so dependant on software from this guy, when he clearly has no real world idea of things. No wonder people are jumping ship to the various BSDs!

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
He has Red Hat's support. Anyway, no need to jump ship to the BSD clones. Just use Gentoo - OpenRC is a great init system: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC
- jcadam 11y ago
  Not so sure about that. Since "mainstream" Linux is now on systemd, how long can some of these alternative init systems remain viable? I always preferred the BSDs on the server anyway, systemd was just the final nudge I needed to get me to run it on my dev box (it actually makes things simpler anyway, I was not relishing the thought of having completely different init systems on my dev box and servers).
  - jcd748 11y ago
    I run FreeBSD on my desktop, and I was surprised by how easy it was to get set up, and how quickly it detected everything.
    - Alupis 11y ago
      Don't forget that pretty much every BSD flavor is actively working on their own systemd-like system.
      - davidgerard 11y ago
        Speaking as a sysadmin, I find something like launchd/upstart/systemd a ridiculously superior alternative to init scripts, in every way. So this is a good thing. (For various values of "systemd-like".)
        yellowapple 11y ago
        Also speaking as a sysadmin, I've found "every way" to be inaccurate. Initscripts have their limitations, but the most glaring issues with them (lots of boilerplate, hard to write, etc.) have been resolved in BSD Land for quite a while, thanks to things like rc.subr. systemd does have some nice features that I've come to appreciate on my GNU/Linux boxen, but I'm still not exactly sold when my OpenBSD boxen have a mostly-sane rc system not subject to most of the problems the systemd crowd claims are inherent to initscript-based systems.
        davidgerard 11y ago
        true, I'm talking about fairly generic Ubuntu VMs out in the fog. But basically, the facilities available cover my common use cases very nicely on the occasions I actually have to write a startup script - I'm finding an upstart config vastly preferable to cobbling together an init shell script, and have yet (out of about 5-10 cases) had to resort to a shell script.
      - aerique 11y ago
        That's not a problem. Even a good thing and the BSDs will build one properly. The problem is how systemd came to be (through political games indeed of merit) and that it's not just an init replacement but that it gets its grubby fingers everywhere in the OS and that it's turning Linux into a Windows-like binary blob mess.
        vhost- 11y ago
        I'm a systemd fan and I would totally agree with this.
      - JdeBP 11y ago
        They are? That's interesting. Please provide details. What systemd-like systems are (to start with) the OpenBSD, DragonFly BSD, MirOS BSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD/PC-BSD, and Debian kFreeBSD people actively working on?
        Alupis 11y ago
        http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruender-sieht-notwendigkeit-fuer-modernes-init-system-1411-110809.html http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruende...
        JdeBP 11y ago
        You very clearly haven't actually listened to that presentation. I recommend that you do.
        Alupis 11y ago
        Uh, the entire presentation is about the need for a systemd-like system, and how the existing init system is not sufficient. Did you listen to the presentation? Look, snark aside, nobody can sanely suggest the existing init systems are sufficient in 2015+. New ideas present in systemd and launchd are exactly what people have desired for a long time. Maybe systemd doesn't float your particular boat, but that doesn't mean the old init system is superior.
        stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > nobody can sanely suggest the existing init systems are sufficient in 2015+ I run OpenRC on servers, desktops, laptops and even a Banana Pro Single-board computer. It's perfectly sufficient.
        Alupis 11y ago
        > It's perfectly sufficient. Maybe for you...
      - Sanddancer 11y ago
        There's a difference between discussion regarding /a/ more in-depth system framework and discussion regarding a specific system framework. One of the constant things written about in these threads though is that they /don't/ want something "systemd-like" because it is such an intrusive, obstinate framework. I see some good ideas coming from the systemd framework, however, its consistent choice of poor defaults and byzantine structure leave me desiring something of a bit more lucid vision.
  - anonbanker 11y ago
    I'd go 100% OpenBSD if it wasn't for my deep-seated love affair with GNU and it's concepts (if not the figurehead). I'm starting to see the GNU boat being sabotaged, though, so I might be forced to abandon my compromised vessel and build a new 3-clause ship. Gentoo is honestly the best of both worlds; linux compatibility, tons of applications, can be rebuilt from source, and a version of ports that doesn't suck. Their steadfast refusal to adopt systemd is pretty much icing on the cake at that point.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      To be fair, if you want to run systemd on Gentoo, you can. It's all about choice. The user's choice.
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        As of late i have come to loath the user/developer distinction. Any user is a potential developer given time and access to tools. But as of late there has been more and more an attitude that developers has to go out of their way to protect users from themselves (user). Thus you get the likes of ChromeOS where the default setup is highly restrictive. And flipping the "developer" switch either way wipes the device clean. Thus there is a very big mental step to go "developer", rather than start out small with some scripts (thus getting familiar with code logic) and perhaps move on from there.
        anonbanker 11y ago
        ChromeOS is also based on Gentoo. :)
        digi_owl 11y ago
        A very serious irony that...
wyldfire 11y ago
Perhaps it's generational? Maybe Mr. Poettering is a talented individual who lacks some specific experiences/history which requires re-learning some lessons from developing linux?
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Unsure feelings when one of the first topics a community brings up about you is how you might need to be "re-educated".
  - anonbanker 11y ago
    This isn't just SystemD. you should ask rasterman sometime about his stint at RH Labs. There was a great interview with him and Havoc Pennington back in 1999 or 2000 where HP couldn't say a nice thing about the guy or his code, because he just didn't fit in with the redhat culture (he liked to wear formal wear to work - a subtle protest of mandatory office attire). The entire Red Hat corporation has been like this since about the 5.2 release, when they removed "Redneck" as a system language option.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      I guess someone at a TLA found the option offensive...
- johnny22 11y ago
  what generation is that? What counts as generational in something as fast moving as our ecosystem?
jgeorge 11y ago
I sometimes lie awake at night asking myself that very same question.
johnny22 11y ago
you're certainly implying that lots of people do that, but really it's only a small vocal minority.
anonbanker 11y ago
Here's Linus defending him on /. [1] Linus: You can say the word "systemd", It's not a four-letter word. Seven letters. Count them. I have to say, I don't really get the hatred of systemd. I think it improves a lot on the state of init, and no, I don't see myself getting into that whole area. Yeah, it may have a few odd corners here and there, and I'm sure you'll find things to despise. That happens in every project. I'm not a huge fan of the binary logging, for example. But that's just an example. I much prefer systemd's infrastructure for starting services over traditional init, and I think that's a much bigger design decision. Yeah, I've had some personality issues with some of the maintainers, but that's about how you handle bug reports and accept blame (or not) for when things go wrong. If people thought that meant that I dislike systemd, I will have to disappoint you guys. 1. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-...
- digi_owl 11y ago
  More like defending the init part of systemd, but still mentioning personality issues with certain people involved with the project. Sadly most of these debates gloss over that systemd has long since grown past being just a init replacement. It has sprouted tentacles all over Linux userspace, and all of them are tightly connected to systemd sitting as init-in-chief. Thus updating some higher level part of userspace, say the Desktop Environment, may well result in your Linux install getting a init-ectomy via the dependencies chain.

How on earth did the modern linux distro become so dependant on software from this guy, when he clearly has no real world idea of things. No wonder people are jumping ship to the various BSDs!

stefantalpalaru 11y ago

He has Red Hat's support. Anyway, no need to jump ship to the BSD clones. Just use Gentoo - OpenRC is a great init system: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC

jcadam 11y ago
Not so sure about that. Since "mainstream" Linux is now on systemd, how long can some of these alternative init systems remain viable? I always preferred the BSDs on the server anyway, systemd was just the final nudge I needed to get me to run it on my dev box (it actually makes things simpler anyway, I was not relishing the thought of having completely different init systems on my dev box and servers).
- jcd748 11y ago
  I run FreeBSD on my desktop, and I was surprised by how easy it was to get set up, and how quickly it detected everything.
  - Alupis 11y ago
    Don't forget that pretty much every BSD flavor is actively working on their own systemd-like system.
    - davidgerard 11y ago
      Speaking as a sysadmin, I find something like launchd/upstart/systemd a ridiculously superior alternative to init scripts, in every way. So this is a good thing. (For various values of "systemd-like".)
      - yellowapple 11y ago
        Also speaking as a sysadmin, I've found "every way" to be inaccurate. Initscripts have their limitations, but the most glaring issues with them (lots of boilerplate, hard to write, etc.) have been resolved in BSD Land for quite a while, thanks to things like rc.subr. systemd does have some nice features that I've come to appreciate on my GNU/Linux boxen, but I'm still not exactly sold when my OpenBSD boxen have a mostly-sane rc system not subject to most of the problems the systemd crowd claims are inherent to initscript-based systems.
        davidgerard 11y ago
        true, I'm talking about fairly generic Ubuntu VMs out in the fog. But basically, the facilities available cover my common use cases very nicely on the occasions I actually have to write a startup script - I'm finding an upstart config vastly preferable to cobbling together an init shell script, and have yet (out of about 5-10 cases) had to resort to a shell script.
    - aerique 11y ago
      That's not a problem. Even a good thing and the BSDs will build one properly. The problem is how systemd came to be (through political games indeed of merit) and that it's not just an init replacement but that it gets its grubby fingers everywhere in the OS and that it's turning Linux into a Windows-like binary blob mess.
      - vhost- 11y ago
        I'm a systemd fan and I would totally agree with this.
    - JdeBP 11y ago
      They are? That's interesting. Please provide details. What systemd-like systems are (to start with) the OpenBSD, DragonFly BSD, MirOS BSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD/PC-BSD, and Debian kFreeBSD people actively working on?
      - Alupis 11y ago
        http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruender-sieht-notwendigkeit-fuer-modernes-init-system-1411-110809.html http://www.golem.de/news/systemd-und-launchd-freebsd-gruende...
        JdeBP 11y ago
        You very clearly haven't actually listened to that presentation. I recommend that you do.
        Alupis 11y ago
        Uh, the entire presentation is about the need for a systemd-like system, and how the existing init system is not sufficient. Did you listen to the presentation? Look, snark aside, nobody can sanely suggest the existing init systems are sufficient in 2015+. New ideas present in systemd and launchd are exactly what people have desired for a long time. Maybe systemd doesn't float your particular boat, but that doesn't mean the old init system is superior.
        stefantalpalaru 11y ago
        > nobody can sanely suggest the existing init systems are sufficient in 2015+ I run OpenRC on servers, desktops, laptops and even a Banana Pro Single-board computer. It's perfectly sufficient.
        Alupis 11y ago
        > It's perfectly sufficient. Maybe for you...
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      There's a difference between discussion regarding /a/ more in-depth system framework and discussion regarding a specific system framework. One of the constant things written about in these threads though is that they /don't/ want something "systemd-like" because it is such an intrusive, obstinate framework. I see some good ideas coming from the systemd framework, however, its consistent choice of poor defaults and byzantine structure leave me desiring something of a bit more lucid vision.
- anonbanker 11y ago
  I'd go 100% OpenBSD if it wasn't for my deep-seated love affair with GNU and it's concepts (if not the figurehead). I'm starting to see the GNU boat being sabotaged, though, so I might be forced to abandon my compromised vessel and build a new 3-clause ship. Gentoo is honestly the best of both worlds; linux compatibility, tons of applications, can be rebuilt from source, and a version of ports that doesn't suck. Their steadfast refusal to adopt systemd is pretty much icing on the cake at that point.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    To be fair, if you want to run systemd on Gentoo, you can. It's all about choice. The user's choice.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      As of late i have come to loath the user/developer distinction. Any user is a potential developer given time and access to tools. But as of late there has been more and more an attitude that developers has to go out of their way to protect users from themselves (user). Thus you get the likes of ChromeOS where the default setup is highly restrictive. And flipping the "developer" switch either way wipes the device clean. Thus there is a very big mental step to go "developer", rather than start out small with some scripts (thus getting familiar with code logic) and perhaps move on from there.
      - anonbanker 11y ago
        ChromeOS is also based on Gentoo. :)
        digi_owl 11y ago
        A very serious irony that...

wyldfire 11y ago

Perhaps it's generational? Maybe Mr. Poettering is a talented individual who lacks some specific experiences/history which requires re-learning some lessons from developing linux?

jsprogrammer 11y ago
Unsure feelings when one of the first topics a community brings up about you is how you might need to be "re-educated".
- anonbanker 11y ago
  This isn't just SystemD. you should ask rasterman sometime about his stint at RH Labs. There was a great interview with him and Havoc Pennington back in 1999 or 2000 where HP couldn't say a nice thing about the guy or his code, because he just didn't fit in with the redhat culture (he liked to wear formal wear to work - a subtle protest of mandatory office attire). The entire Red Hat corporation has been like this since about the 5.2 release, when they removed "Redneck" as a system language option.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    I guess someone at a TLA found the option offensive...
johnny22 11y ago
what generation is that? What counts as generational in something as fast moving as our ecosystem?

jgeorge 11y ago

I sometimes lie awake at night asking myself that very same question.

johnny22 11y ago

you're certainly implying that lots of people do that, but really it's only a small vocal minority.

anonbanker 11y ago

Here's Linus defending him on /. [1] Linus: You can say the word "systemd", It's not a four-letter word. Seven letters. Count them. I have to say, I don't really get the hatred of systemd. I think it improves a lot on the state of init, and no, I don't see myself getting into that whole area. Yeah, it may have a few odd corners here and there, and I'm sure you'll find things to despise. That happens in every project. I'm not a huge fan of the binary logging, for example. But that's just an example. I much prefer systemd's infrastructure for starting services over traditional init, and I think that's a much bigger design decision. Yeah, I've had some personality issues with some of the maintainers, but that's about how you handle bug reports and accept blame (or not) for when things go wrong. If people thought that meant that I dislike systemd, I will have to disappoint you guys. 1. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-...

digi_owl 11y ago
More like defending the init part of systemd, but still mentioning personality issues with certain people involved with the project. Sadly most of these debates gloss over that systemd has long since grown past being just a init replacement. It has sprouted tentacles all over Linux userspace, and all of them are tightly connected to systemd sitting as init-in-chief. Thus updating some higher level part of userspace, say the Desktop Environment, may well result in your Linux install getting a init-ectomy via the dependencies chain.