8 ms·

Boneheaded default behavior in the systemd project? How surprising.

by na85 11y ago

scrollaway 11y ago
Unnecessary inflammatory comments aren't much better than bad default behavior in software. I'd say they're a lot worse, actually. Edit2: And now the entire thread is getting derailed with inflammatory comments. This is sad. I've come to expect more from HN.
- beedogs 11y ago
  If you want some unnecessary inflammatory comments, take a look at how the issue was "closed".
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    I did, and I see people throwing words like "Absurd" and calling lennart "stupid", while he's providing a reasonable explanation. I disagree with Lennart and I don't think Google should be default but his reasoning is still good.
    - AdieuToLogic 11y ago
      So that this thread accurately reflects the "stupid" statement, here are some of the comments using this term: @poettering You're being kind of absurd and stupid here. Supplying a broken timeserver as a default is inane and silly. Please accept the pull request. #439 (pull request located at: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/439 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/439) To which Poettering responded: Id be willing to take a patch that adds a big warning to configure if the default ntp server to use is not set when invoking configure. People who ignore that warning are then on their own. Which was followed up two minutes later with: The issue is that the google time servers shouldn't be used as a default, period. How does adding a warning if you use the defaults fix the underlying issue? Addressed by Poettering with: As i read what is written above google just says the servers are crap but doesnt explicitly deny us to use them. Which is why id like to leave them in place because they are at least googd enough for testing purposes. And followed up with: @poettering Then how about we delete the server list entirely and let systemd crash and burn loudly when ntp servers are not supplied. This seems preferable to silent failures or silent hard to find issues. --- Characterizations of "absurd" and "stupid" may sound harsh, yet could be explained as commenters frustrated in the presence of unreasonable obstinance. Poettering needs to either step up and stand behind the "we are going to make as many decisions for people who install systemd as we can" OR he can play the: Systemd upstream is not a product Card. But it cannot be both. EDIT: Inserted newlines into the quotes to eliminate horizontal scroll bars and refined the characterization explanation to better convey original intent.
      - belorn 11y ago
        Why did you exclude the comment where he said that the google servers are bad and he would accept any servers which is better? shitty servers as default are better than none. If you let me know a set of servers that are openly accessible, that do not require registration as a vendor or product and are better then the shitty servers then let me know and we can switch over.
        AdieuToLogic 11y ago
        > Why did you exclude the comment where he said that the google servers are bad and he would accept any servers which is better? Because the quotes I presented were done so in context to provide a summary of why the caustic terms were used. I added my own opinion after a demarcation so that the duality would be clear. It's funny that the quote you present both supports many people's belief that "he makes whatever decisions he can and everyone has to live with it", while still trying to play the "gee wiz, systemd isn't a product" card.
      - ifdefdebug 11y ago
        I find LP's argumentation in those lines you reproduced quite reasonable. Specifically, nobody tries to refute "google just says the servers are crap but doesnt explicitly deny us to use them". If that holds true, then half of the argument people use to get the servers removed is false. The other half seems to be "Supplying a broken timeserver as a default is inane and silly". In my opinion, this is successfully addressed by "willing to take a patch that adds a big warning" and make clear that those servers are meant exclusively for some build-and-test bots to have something to pull from - where one leap second more or less doesn't matter. So in my opinion, unless someone refutes "google (...) doesnt explicitly deny us to use them" they might not have a valid argument.
        jrochkind1 11y ago
        The original PR message from a google engineer says: > People should definitely /not/ be using these time servers by default without realising it. Please change systemd's default time servers to some service that is designed to provide a reliable public NTP service. I guess it's not totally clear if this is "google" speaking, or just some google engineer's opinion. It's of course hard to get an "officially from google" answer to just about anything. But, whoever is speaking on wheover's behalf, does seem to be explicitly denying the use of the ntp servers, just doing so politely. Including the word 'please' does not make it less explicit.
- Lazare 11y ago
  For good or ill, Lennart Poettering is not well regarded in these circles.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    Lennart is a skilled dev with some excellent ideas and some controversial ideas. The stuff he designs eventually ends up being picked by distributions and defaulted. And for creating software that simplifies the lives of distros and gets picked up, he is "not well regarded" as you say. But don't mince your words, people fucking hate him for it. They don't even know him yet they despise every fiber of his being. Have you seen some of the hate that goes on even here? And everything he does or writes is getting analyzed like a teenager analyzes every character in his girlfriend's texts because "oh god I'm so in love". Look at this issue. He mis-presses send on a github comment and immediately you have 10 comments without even waiting for an explanation, calling the guy "absurd and stupid". He's not the only one getting treated like that by the community. One day, one of those devs will kill themself, and people will rush him to talk further about them like they know them. Exactly like what happened to Aaron. Yeah I sure would love to get treated like that for working full time on improving foss. /s Edit: It's fucking appalling how I get immediately downvoted, without any reply, just for defending the guy as a human being. Really proves my point.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      As someone who disagrees with but nonetheless respects LP, you seem to misrepresent his character. He isn't as sensitive or shallow as you portray him, he's a provocateur and he embraces it to his leverage. He's really skilled at using technical details while mixing them in with lies by omission, subtle distortions and personal opinion to create some formidably sly arguments that an inexperienced observer takes for granted. Skilled programmer and speaker. That he makes distribution maintainers' lives easier is mostly true. This isn't really an argument in favor of systemd, though. The things that distro maintainers did with sysvinit for so long has been anathema to any good design principles, so just about anything is an improvement in comparison. Yet even still practical systemd integrations are quite flaky and unoptimized (https://wiki.freedesktop.org/www/Software/systemd/Optimizations/ https://wiki.freedesktop.org/www/Software/systemd/Optimizati...), as there are no magic bullets and systemd being an informal spec is breeding ground for lots of cargo cult wisdom.
- jmspring 11y ago
  No. A project that has pushed itself as it has, systemd should be open to direct criticism for poor choices, poor defaults and bad behavior. It is sad distros are using it as default, but I'm glad it won't be infesting the BSDs.
  - JetSetWilly 11y ago
    All these reactionaries flocking to BSD are going to be very upset when launchd hits them.
    - jimktrains2 11y ago
      As part of the group (linux -> BSD adopters), I wouldn't be opposed to a better startup framework, but systemd has absorbed too many systems for my comfort. (Though I'm not a fan of it subsuming cron and inetd).
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Probably just a pipe dream: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/launchd-on-bsd.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/lau...
    - floatboth 11y ago
      It won't. There were, like, three attempts to make launchd run on FreeBSD. All of them failed, because launchd is so full of Mach-isms/XNUisms/Darwinisms (lol) And pretty much everyone in the BSD community hates XML. launchd is actually not bad, except for the XML.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Last time i checked Launchd has nothing close to the scope creep that systemd has.
    - jmspring 11y ago
      I was heavily on the BSD bandwagon before wandering over to Linux due to commercial/job needs. I'm happy in pretty much both environments. But, personally, I believe systemd doesn't follow the UNIX philosophy of do one thing week. It is an ecosystem/environment/framework of it's own. Not my cup of tea. Launchd on Mac seems a bit cleaner, from my experience, than systemd.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  > I've come to expect more from HN. For a group of people who tend to get all stabby any time someone suggests that being nicer to people is a good idea, HN sure has sensitive feelings.

Boneheaded default behavior in the systemd project? How surprising.

by na85 11y ago

Boneheaded default behavior in the systemd project? How surprising.

Unnecessary inflammatory comments aren't much better than bad default behavior in software. I'd say they're a lot worse, actually. Edit2: And now the entire thread is getting derailed with inflammatory comments. This is sad. I've come to expect more from HN.

beedogs 11y ago
If you want some unnecessary inflammatory comments, take a look at how the issue was "closed".
- scrollaway 11y ago
  I did, and I see people throwing words like "Absurd" and calling lennart "stupid", while he's providing a reasonable explanation. I disagree with Lennart and I don't think Google should be default but his reasoning is still good.
  - AdieuToLogic 11y ago
    So that this thread accurately reflects the "stupid" statement, here are some of the comments using this term: @poettering You're being kind of absurd and stupid here. Supplying a broken timeserver as a default is inane and silly. Please accept the pull request. #439 (pull request located at: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/439 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/439) To which Poettering responded: Id be willing to take a patch that adds a big warning to configure if the default ntp server to use is not set when invoking configure. People who ignore that warning are then on their own. Which was followed up two minutes later with: The issue is that the google time servers shouldn't be used as a default, period. How does adding a warning if you use the defaults fix the underlying issue? Addressed by Poettering with: As i read what is written above google just says the servers are crap but doesnt explicitly deny us to use them. Which is why id like to leave them in place because they are at least googd enough for testing purposes. And followed up with: @poettering Then how about we delete the server list entirely and let systemd crash and burn loudly when ntp servers are not supplied. This seems preferable to silent failures or silent hard to find issues. --- Characterizations of "absurd" and "stupid" may sound harsh, yet could be explained as commenters frustrated in the presence of unreasonable obstinance. Poettering needs to either step up and stand behind the "we are going to make as many decisions for people who install systemd as we can" OR he can play the: Systemd upstream is not a product Card. But it cannot be both. EDIT: Inserted newlines into the quotes to eliminate horizontal scroll bars and refined the characterization explanation to better convey original intent.
    - belorn 11y ago
      Why did you exclude the comment where he said that the google servers are bad and he would accept any servers which is better? shitty servers as default are better than none. If you let me know a set of servers that are openly accessible, that do not require registration as a vendor or product and are better then the shitty servers then let me know and we can switch over.
      - AdieuToLogic 11y ago
        > Why did you exclude the comment where he said that the google servers are bad and he would accept any servers which is better? Because the quotes I presented were done so in context to provide a summary of why the caustic terms were used. I added my own opinion after a demarcation so that the duality would be clear. It's funny that the quote you present both supports many people's belief that "he makes whatever decisions he can and everyone has to live with it", while still trying to play the "gee wiz, systemd isn't a product" card.
    - ifdefdebug 11y ago
      I find LP's argumentation in those lines you reproduced quite reasonable. Specifically, nobody tries to refute "google just says the servers are crap but doesnt explicitly deny us to use them". If that holds true, then half of the argument people use to get the servers removed is false. The other half seems to be "Supplying a broken timeserver as a default is inane and silly". In my opinion, this is successfully addressed by "willing to take a patch that adds a big warning" and make clear that those servers are meant exclusively for some build-and-test bots to have something to pull from - where one leap second more or less doesn't matter. So in my opinion, unless someone refutes "google (...) doesnt explicitly deny us to use them" they might not have a valid argument.
      - jrochkind1 11y ago
        The original PR message from a google engineer says: > People should definitely /not/ be using these time servers by default without realising it. Please change systemd's default time servers to some service that is designed to provide a reliable public NTP service. I guess it's not totally clear if this is "google" speaking, or just some google engineer's opinion. It's of course hard to get an "officially from google" answer to just about anything. But, whoever is speaking on wheover's behalf, does seem to be explicitly denying the use of the ntp servers, just doing so politely. Including the word 'please' does not make it less explicit.
Lazare 11y ago
For good or ill, Lennart Poettering is not well regarded in these circles.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Lennart is a skilled dev with some excellent ideas and some controversial ideas. The stuff he designs eventually ends up being picked by distributions and defaulted. And for creating software that simplifies the lives of distros and gets picked up, he is "not well regarded" as you say. But don't mince your words, people fucking hate him for it. They don't even know him yet they despise every fiber of his being. Have you seen some of the hate that goes on even here? And everything he does or writes is getting analyzed like a teenager analyzes every character in his girlfriend's texts because "oh god I'm so in love". Look at this issue. He mis-presses send on a github comment and immediately you have 10 comments without even waiting for an explanation, calling the guy "absurd and stupid". He's not the only one getting treated like that by the community. One day, one of those devs will kill themself, and people will rush him to talk further about them like they know them. Exactly like what happened to Aaron. Yeah I sure would love to get treated like that for working full time on improving foss. /s Edit: It's fucking appalling how I get immediately downvoted, without any reply, just for defending the guy as a human being. Really proves my point.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    As someone who disagrees with but nonetheless respects LP, you seem to misrepresent his character. He isn't as sensitive or shallow as you portray him, he's a provocateur and he embraces it to his leverage. He's really skilled at using technical details while mixing them in with lies by omission, subtle distortions and personal opinion to create some formidably sly arguments that an inexperienced observer takes for granted. Skilled programmer and speaker. That he makes distribution maintainers' lives easier is mostly true. This isn't really an argument in favor of systemd, though. The things that distro maintainers did with sysvinit for so long has been anathema to any good design principles, so just about anything is an improvement in comparison. Yet even still practical systemd integrations are quite flaky and unoptimized (https://wiki.freedesktop.org/www/Software/systemd/Optimizations/ https://wiki.freedesktop.org/www/Software/systemd/Optimizati...), as there are no magic bullets and systemd being an informal spec is breeding ground for lots of cargo cult wisdom.
jmspring 11y ago
No. A project that has pushed itself as it has, systemd should be open to direct criticism for poor choices, poor defaults and bad behavior. It is sad distros are using it as default, but I'm glad it won't be infesting the BSDs.
- JetSetWilly 11y ago
  All these reactionaries flocking to BSD are going to be very upset when launchd hits them.
  - jimktrains2 11y ago
    As part of the group (linux -> BSD adopters), I wouldn't be opposed to a better startup framework, but systemd has absorbed too many systems for my comfort. (Though I'm not a fan of it subsuming cron and inetd).
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Probably just a pipe dream: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/launchd-on-bsd.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/lau...
  - floatboth 11y ago
    It won't. There were, like, three attempts to make launchd run on FreeBSD. All of them failed, because launchd is so full of Mach-isms/XNUisms/Darwinisms (lol) And pretty much everyone in the BSD community hates XML. launchd is actually not bad, except for the XML.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Last time i checked Launchd has nothing close to the scope creep that systemd has.
  - jmspring 11y ago
    I was heavily on the BSD bandwagon before wandering over to Linux due to commercial/job needs. I'm happy in pretty much both environments. But, personally, I believe systemd doesn't follow the UNIX philosophy of do one thing week. It is an ecosystem/environment/framework of it's own. Not my cup of tea. Launchd on Mac seems a bit cleaner, from my experience, than systemd.
rodgerd 11y ago
> I've come to expect more from HN. For a group of people who tend to get all stabby any time someone suggests that being nicer to people is a good idea, HN sure has sensitive feelings.