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Then why does it seem like every Debian debate compared it (favorably) to upstart or sysvinit? This is what annoys me about that debate. Systemd arguably _is_

Then why does it seem like every Debian debate compared it (favorably) to upstart or sysvinit? This is what annoys me about that debate. Systemd arguably _is_ a better init system. But no one asked for a new logger, network config, time daemon, cron, etc. Now you're saying that's always been the intention? Perhaps, but this was not emphasized by the systemd team.

programmernews3 11y ago
systemd does logging, network config, time daemon, cron, etc better than the alternatives btw.
- caf 11y ago
  In the case of the time daemon, that does not actually seem to be the case. It appears to be a far less rigorous approach than that used by ntpd - basically it looks to be similar to running ntpdate in a loop.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Seems to be par of the course for systemd sub projects. Their dhcp client violates various security best practices in the name of speed (the whole thing was reminiscent of the Apple debacle related to iOS wifi). And their DNS client quietly grew a cache susceptible to poisoning. A problem known about and solved for a decade in DNS circles.
- alrs 11y ago
  I'd be in "eat my hat" territory if systemd was a better logger than syslog-ng.
  - ossreality 11y ago
    How is it not?
crdoconnor 11y ago
>Then why does it seem like every Debian debate compared it (favorably) to upstart The debian technical committee vote on upstart vs systemd was split 50:50.
krschultz 11y ago
I don't know if that was always the intention. I don't know the original authors of systemd personally. The original announcement blog post definitely does not make any claims to be more than just an init system[1]. That said, at one point the Apache Foundation was just about a web server and the GNU project was just about a compiler. I'm not arguing for or against systemd here, I'm just saying that the days of thinking about systemd as just an init system are over. They're building an entire framework for a Linux distro. You can agree or disagree with that, but talking about systemd today as an init system that has sprawled is obfuscating the situation. The systemd maintainers today are clearly trying to go beyond just an init system. [1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html
- cremno 11y ago
  >the GNU project was just about a compiler The acronym itself is actually a big hint that this is incorrect. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/net.unix-wizards/8twfRPM79u0/1xlglzrWrU0J https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/net.unix-wizards/8twfR... >To begin with, GNU will be a kernel plus all the utilities needed to >write and run C programs: editor, shell, C compiler, linker, >assembler, and a few other things.
dec0dedab0de 11y ago
I think the tight coupling of programs is the main reason that systemd causes so much controversy. If it were just an init system, even an opinionated one, there wouldn't be so many people who cared.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Exactly. I didn't hear about it until i ran into a notice that consolekit was depreciated, and getting pointed to logind. And logind happened to be tightly coupled to systemd-as-pid1.

programmernews3 11y ago

systemd does logging, network config, time daemon, cron, etc better than the alternatives btw.

caf 11y ago
In the case of the time daemon, that does not actually seem to be the case. It appears to be a far less rigorous approach than that used by ntpd - basically it looks to be similar to running ntpdate in a loop.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Seems to be par of the course for systemd sub projects. Their dhcp client violates various security best practices in the name of speed (the whole thing was reminiscent of the Apple debacle related to iOS wifi). And their DNS client quietly grew a cache susceptible to poisoning. A problem known about and solved for a decade in DNS circles.
alrs 11y ago
I'd be in "eat my hat" territory if systemd was a better logger than syslog-ng.
- ossreality 11y ago
  How is it not?

crdoconnor 11y ago

>Then why does it seem like every Debian debate compared it (favorably) to upstart The debian technical committee vote on upstart vs systemd was split 50:50.

krschultz 11y ago

I don't know if that was always the intention. I don't know the original authors of systemd personally. The original announcement blog post definitely does not make any claims to be more than just an init system[1]. That said, at one point the Apache Foundation was just about a web server and the GNU project was just about a compiler. I'm not arguing for or against systemd here, I'm just saying that the days of thinking about systemd as just an init system are over. They're building an entire framework for a Linux distro. You can agree or disagree with that, but talking about systemd today as an init system that has sprawled is obfuscating the situation. The systemd maintainers today are clearly trying to go beyond just an init system. [1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html

cremno 11y ago
>the GNU project was just about a compiler The acronym itself is actually a big hint that this is incorrect. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/net.unix-wizards/8twfRPM79u0/1xlglzrWrU0J https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/net.unix-wizards/8twfR... >To begin with, GNU will be a kernel plus all the utilities needed to >write and run C programs: editor, shell, C compiler, linker, >assembler, and a few other things.

dec0dedab0de 11y ago

I think the tight coupling of programs is the main reason that systemd causes so much controversy. If it were just an init system, even an opinionated one, there wouldn't be so many people who cared.

digi_owl 11y ago
Exactly. I didn't hear about it until i ran into a notice that consolekit was depreciated, and getting pointed to logind. And logind happened to be tightly coupled to systemd-as-pid1.