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Linked email from Lennart has some interesting reasoning for this: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-August/022575.html http://lists.free

Linked email from Lennart has some interesting reasoning for this: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-August/022575.html http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-Aug...

msandford 11y ago
I basically read that as "this isn't our responsibility so we don't have to do anything" which is sort-of true. I think if they didn't configure ANYTHING by default, well, in that case the distro HAS to figure something out or else it won't work. OK, that's legit. I think if they wanted to pick an officially blessed config option then they should go through the necessary steps to have it be official and blessed. Whatever that means. But this seems to be the worst of both worlds; we're going to pick something for you so it'll work without intervention, but then we'll tell you that you're idiots for not fixing a thing which isn't obviously broken to begin with. Ship it broken, or ship it working but don't ship it working poorly and then tell people it's their own fault.
- jsmthrowaway 11y ago
  It's simpler than that. Knowingly hardcoding someone else's timeservers without even speaking with the operator of said timeservers is Internet hostility, particularly when your project is popular enough to be deployed on potentially millions of machines. D-Link hardcoded PHK's timeserver many years ago: https://people.freebsd.org/~phk/dlink/ https://people.freebsd.org/~phk/dlink/ Netgear hardcoded the University of Wisconsin even earlier than that: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ The best part about the Netgear one was it hit upwards of a quarter million packets per second and actively resisted mitigation by admins. Seriously, don't hardcode. Ever.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    Companies won't learn until the time servers they shipped on hundreds of thousands of products stop working from one day to the next because the operator of the server didn't feel like offering them a free service.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    I seem to recall reading about a French made program that had hardcoded the Linux source FTP server. Apparently it was used as part of a bandwidth test. And it got so popular that the server admins had to ban the French IP range...
crdoconnor 11y ago
Still doesn't explain why Google instead of ntp.org.
- Others 11y ago
  As someone on the issue notes: You cannot use pool.ntp.org either.. "You must absolutely not use the default pool.ntp.org zone names as the default configuration in your application or appliance." that's according to the pool's website...
  - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
    And Ask Bjørn Hansen, the primary developer of the NTP pool, corrected that user. Keep reading, because that's not correct.
    - Others 11y ago
      Actually my comment is correct. You can't use the standard public time servers. Systemd has expressed that they do not want to apply for a vendor pool, for good or for ill.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >they do not want to apply for a vendor pool So apparently there's a super good reason for this. What exactly is it?
        Twirrim 11y ago
        "systemd is not a distribution." Which is a fair point, probably one of the few I agree with in the response. Systemd is just a software component. When you install ntpd and similar you'll find it almost always comes configured with a vendor pool for the distribution e.g. 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org The same should be applying for systemd. That said, they really shouldn't be setting defaults like this, especially not broken ones.
mandelbulb 11y ago
He hasn't explained why they chose Google in that thread, yet. Moreover, his argument that it isn't their responsibility became invalid when they set a default preference. Same applies if they change it to ntp.org. That project, however, is explicitly intended for such purpose and is generally accepted by the majority.
coned88 11y ago
So ntpd is a dns server?
- giancarlostoro 11y ago
  >The Network Time Protocol daemon (ntpd) is an operating system program that maintains the system time in synchronization with time servers using the Network Time Protocol (NTP).
  - coned88 11y ago
    Lennart says the following though > But quite frankly, we added timesyncd because we believe that installing a full DNS server like ntpd/chrony on all client machines is absolute overkill
    - Blackthorn 11y ago
      Nobody else mentioned it because it is incredibly obvious that it's a typo or slip. Debate the technical merits, don't nitpick stuff that's completely inconsequential.
      - draven 11y ago
        He mentions typing this on his phone so it's possible it's the autocorrect (and "corrections" that kinda make sense are the worse.)
      - coned88 11y ago
        I wasn't nitpicking I thought I could learn something.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      They also have a proxying DNS client in the systemd code somewhere. One susceptible to a decade old vulnerability no less...
      - 11y ago
AdieuToLogic 11y ago
What I take away from the link is: > Distributions usually have a full NTP client installed by default, why > should GNOME try to enable/disable an SNTP client that happens to be > distributed with systemd? Well, "usually" means right *now*, little else. And: > > This is really about being a *client*, and > > not trying to outsmart servers. > > Outsmart servers how exactly? By not trusting them... To me, this provides insight into Poettering's mindset of systemd creating a fool's paradise[1] regarding coexistence with anything outside of its walled garden[2]. For an example supporting this, the not-too-subtle hint of system clients outside the systemd ecosphere (NTP in this quote) being slated for elimination in distributions should be sufficient. BTW, love your use of the phrase "interesting reasoning". 1 - http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/138800.html http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/138800.html 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_platform
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Poettering's projects has basically turned into lightning rods for a group of devs that want Linux to have a one true way to do everything, as they see the bazaar way of doing things as a failure and something that is holding Linux back from wider adoption.
  - pessimizer 11y ago
    Linux is widely adopted.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      You know it, i know it, but as best i can tell they don't see it as "wide enough". Damn it, GregKH has basically admitted that one big reason for pushing kdbus is that the automobile industry wants to adopt embedded Linux as a replacement for QNX. And for some oddball reason they have adopted dbus as their replacement for whatever QNX RPC they used before. Except that said QNX RPC was higher performing than current dbus, in part because it was in kernel...

msandford 11y ago

I basically read that as "this isn't our responsibility so we don't have to do anything" which is sort-of true. I think if they didn't configure ANYTHING by default, well, in that case the distro HAS to figure something out or else it won't work. OK, that's legit. I think if they wanted to pick an officially blessed config option then they should go through the necessary steps to have it be official and blessed. Whatever that means. But this seems to be the worst of both worlds; we're going to pick something for you so it'll work without intervention, but then we'll tell you that you're idiots for not fixing a thing which isn't obviously broken to begin with. Ship it broken, or ship it working but don't ship it working poorly and then tell people it's their own fault.

jsmthrowaway 11y ago
It's simpler than that. Knowingly hardcoding someone else's timeservers without even speaking with the operator of said timeservers is Internet hostility, particularly when your project is popular enough to be deployed on potentially millions of machines. D-Link hardcoded PHK's timeserver many years ago: https://people.freebsd.org/~phk/dlink/ https://people.freebsd.org/~phk/dlink/ Netgear hardcoded the University of Wisconsin even earlier than that: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ The best part about the Netgear one was it hit upwards of a quarter million packets per second and actively resisted mitigation by admins. Seriously, don't hardcode. Ever.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Companies won't learn until the time servers they shipped on hundreds of thousands of products stop working from one day to the next because the operator of the server didn't feel like offering them a free service.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  I seem to recall reading about a French made program that had hardcoded the Linux source FTP server. Apparently it was used as part of a bandwidth test. And it got so popular that the server admins had to ban the French IP range...

crdoconnor 11y ago

Still doesn't explain why Google instead of ntp.org.

Others 11y ago
As someone on the issue notes: You cannot use pool.ntp.org either.. "You must absolutely not use the default pool.ntp.org zone names as the default configuration in your application or appliance." that's according to the pool's website...
- jsmthrowaway 11y ago
  And Ask Bjørn Hansen, the primary developer of the NTP pool, corrected that user. Keep reading, because that's not correct.
  - Others 11y ago
    Actually my comment is correct. You can't use the standard public time servers. Systemd has expressed that they do not want to apply for a vendor pool, for good or for ill.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >they do not want to apply for a vendor pool So apparently there's a super good reason for this. What exactly is it?
      - Twirrim 11y ago
        "systemd is not a distribution." Which is a fair point, probably one of the few I agree with in the response. Systemd is just a software component. When you install ntpd and similar you'll find it almost always comes configured with a vendor pool for the distribution e.g. 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org The same should be applying for systemd. That said, they really shouldn't be setting defaults like this, especially not broken ones.

mandelbulb 11y ago

He hasn't explained why they chose Google in that thread, yet. Moreover, his argument that it isn't their responsibility became invalid when they set a default preference. Same applies if they change it to ntp.org. That project, however, is explicitly intended for such purpose and is generally accepted by the majority.

coned88 11y ago

So ntpd is a dns server?

giancarlostoro 11y ago
>The Network Time Protocol daemon (ntpd) is an operating system program that maintains the system time in synchronization with time servers using the Network Time Protocol (NTP).
- coned88 11y ago
  Lennart says the following though > But quite frankly, we added timesyncd because we believe that installing a full DNS server like ntpd/chrony on all client machines is absolute overkill
  - Blackthorn 11y ago
    Nobody else mentioned it because it is incredibly obvious that it's a typo or slip. Debate the technical merits, don't nitpick stuff that's completely inconsequential.
    - draven 11y ago
      He mentions typing this on his phone so it's possible it's the autocorrect (and "corrections" that kinda make sense are the worse.)
    - coned88 11y ago
      I wasn't nitpicking I thought I could learn something.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    They also have a proxying DNS client in the systemd code somewhere. One susceptible to a decade old vulnerability no less...
    - 11y ago

AdieuToLogic 11y ago

What I take away from the link is: > Distributions usually have a full NTP client installed by default, why > should GNOME try to enable/disable an SNTP client that happens to be > distributed with systemd? Well, "usually" means right *now*, little else. And: > > This is really about being a *client*, and > > not trying to outsmart servers. > > Outsmart servers how exactly? By not trusting them... To me, this provides insight into Poettering's mindset of systemd creating a fool's paradise[1] regarding coexistence with anything outside of its walled garden[2]. For an example supporting this, the not-too-subtle hint of system clients outside the systemd ecosphere (NTP in this quote) being slated for elimination in distributions should be sufficient. BTW, love your use of the phrase "interesting reasoning". 1 - http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/138800.html http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/138800.html 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_platform

digi_owl 11y ago
Poettering's projects has basically turned into lightning rods for a group of devs that want Linux to have a one true way to do everything, as they see the bazaar way of doing things as a failure and something that is holding Linux back from wider adoption.
- pessimizer 11y ago
  Linux is widely adopted.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    You know it, i know it, but as best i can tell they don't see it as "wide enough". Damn it, GregKH has basically admitted that one big reason for pushing kdbus is that the automobile industry wants to adopt embedded Linux as a replacement for QNX. And for some oddball reason they have adopted dbus as their replacement for whatever QNX RPC they used before. Except that said QNX RPC was higher performing than current dbus, in part because it was in kernel...