4 ms·

As a manager of engineers I would add one thing to this generally good advice: After you negotiate the raise, make sure you live up to it. If you kick ass at

by harryh 11y ago

As a manager of engineers I would add one thing to this generally good advice: After you negotiate the raise, make sure you live up to it. If you kick ass at your job, your manager will very rarely worry too much about what they're paying you, they'll just be thrilled to have you on the team. But if you're not living up to the high expectations you set for yourself then they're really going to regret paying you that extra 5k (or 10k or 20k or whatever).

Tehnix 11y ago
This is actually the reason that I prefer changing jobs instead of asking for a raise. Asking for a raise puts me in a position where I have to perform extra to be "worthy" of that raise, while it might have been that my initial salary was way lower than my market value. Why then add the much increased pressure of asking a raise and the uncomfortable conversations that surely does ensue, when you end up in a much better position by simply looking for other offers. In final, I would actually say that I strongly disagree with your advice, and you're (at least that attitude) the type of team that I would probably leave. Your base assumption is wrong to begin with. The raise doesn't come from the employee having to do extra work, no it comes from them currently being undervalued and their current salary not being indicative of their current value, i.e. the raise is should not entail more worth, but is there to match the current level of worth of the employee.
- harryh 11y ago
  There is obviously a lot of nuance here. Certainly more than I covered in my 4 sentence comment. Generally with most companies there will be a salary range for most positions. You're right that if that salary range is out of wack with the prevailing market rates the company is unlikely to retain good people (or attract them in the first place). But assuming the range has been set more or less correctly you're likely to have a salary at least in the ballpark of what's appropriate. My point was really about pushing your manager to go towards the high end of that range (either for a new job offer or a raise at an existing job. doesn't matter). As long as you've got some ammo in your corner this will generally be possible. But then afterwards I go back to what I said. Live up to it so your manager doesn't end up regretting his decision.
- scintill76 11y ago
  Aren't you going to start under some additional pressure at your new job, to make a good impression and show you were "worthy" of being hired, and at the price you're being paid?
dpweb 11y ago
Agree, as a manager of 15 people, there's 1 or 2 superstars I would say pay them almost whatever they want - if they demanded it (which they don't). They're worth it. Only true for the highest performers however.
- vosper 11y ago
  Are you also empowered to make that decision yourself?
- throwaway151 11y ago
  Throwaway cause I'm a lurker and don't really care. Just sharing a contrarian experience... As a manager of 7, formerly 10, those 'non-superstars' can easily go find a job elsewhere as well. Remember, these are engineers. "Superstars" or not, they're not stupid. The demand is there. When management balked at requests to bump pay (not even that much, and only to bring it in line for the region) for people they didn't think were 'rockstars', they walked off to better offers (I don't have authority here to bump pay without approvals). It's created a bit of a headache. Not only do we have to find replacements, which is time consuming, folks are concerned they may not be considered a superstar (it hasn't been stated so succinctly, but the conversations have that vibe). And in the long run, it was decided to raise pay across the board to reflect the increase in the area. Be fair to your employees as a whole. Assess their overall contribution to the company. Not just number of commits, LOC, or that the wrote some really cool but useless feature in no time at all (really hate when my boss beams over having folks like that here, fortunately they're not on my team).
  - seiji 11y ago
    Fun related story: a few years ago, Google was hiring entire teams from Microsoft away to work on Google-only projects. After noticing the ongoing pattern, Microsoft just doubled the salaries of entire teams over night. 90k -> 180k. 110k -> 220k. That stopped the Google drain for a while.
- brianobush 11y ago
  I find superstars harder to manage than regular engineers. Yes, they are amazing but sometimes, enjoy going their own direction which can be hard to manage and sculpt into the group motion going forward.
michaelochurch 11y ago
After you negotiate the raise, make sure you live up to it. I disagree, not with the advice (obviously, living up to the new expectations is better than falling short of them) but with the attitude (often espoused by management) that a bump in your compensation comes with a harder job. Often it comes with an easier job. The intellectual demands may get higher, but the emotional demands of subordination tend to go away when you go from a $90k junior peon to a $135k trusted senior to a $180k VP-level fellow who gets to call technical shots. When I was a junior, I had to maintain shit code written in languages I hated, and if I struggled with something and pointed to the bad code, that'd be met with suspicion because I was lower on the totem pole. Now I get to pick tools most of the time and if I say that something is hard and needs to be done a different way, people believe me. The technical challenges have become harder as I've risen, but the jobs get easier and way better on the whole. Eight years ago I wouldn't just grab a side office and write some code (I probably could have, but I was insecure and young and felt a need to be in the open-plan environment for 8 straight hours, panic attacks be damned). Now, I know that I have sufficient status that I can do that, and that matters a huge amount. Technical challenges (the part of work that I enjoy) going up and the emotional load of being low-ranking (that slowly kills a person) going down is a win on both fronts. Of course, if my company gets taken over and everyone has to typecast to a junior ScrumDrone-- "Agile" is "how to be a 2x Junior Developer"-- then I'll be laid off shortly after because I'm massively overpaid for a ScrumDrone. No one who takes "user stories" seriously is worth what I make, so the minute I hear people talking about Scrum (bringing down the 10xers to turn the 0.2x into 0.6x) I get nervous. If you're planning to ask for a raise, you need to kick ass before you go in and ask for it. And you should really ask for a promotion (not, "boss, I want your job", but more responsibility and perhaps a title improvement so long as it doesn't put you in the awkward position of outranking your manager) rather than just asking for more money for the same job (an unattractive proposition to the boss, no matter what). In general, this happens incrementally. You ask for a 15% raise and only get 5%, so you ask for a title bump, even if it doesn't mean you take on reports. Because of the title bump, you get better projects, you're taken more seriously, you suffer less emotional load and perform better, and you're also in a higher bonus pool. Two years later when the company is flush with cash, you get a 25% raise without asking because you're actually the lowest paid VP and they've decided to correct that. Working hard matters the most in the 3-6 months before you ask for the new responsibilities, promotion, and of course the pay increase that come with it (or, at least, can come with it). Then you settle into the new role and it doesn't matter that much how hard you work (average to average-plus effort is fine) so long as people like you and you follow the "become part of the team before trying to become its leader" principle. The before- and after-negotiation phases have different rules, but the former is harder on the whole. Of course, people who are smart about this will negotiate continuously, involving themselves with (or starting) big projects without asking for permission, delegating the less interesting tasks to (preferably eager) juniors even if they don't formally manage them, making changes to your arrangements (WFH, taking a seat with a wall at your back) to improve your productivity, and generally feeling out what their position actually is. If you don't continuously negotiate, you're probably not going to feel comfortable marching into someone's office and asking for $20k more, and you probably haven't done the micro-negotiation ground work (getting your title in line, getting your best projects noticed and your weak spots ignored, delegating the work that won't help your case or make your important projects succeed) necessary to make the raise seem like an obvious "yes".
chuckcode 11y ago
As a manager of engineers I would definitely recommend showing up and trying to kick ass every day no matter what. If you're feeling like you're under paid feel free to discuss it with your manager and get another job if you feel that is the right move for yourself. Please don't show up and sulk at work and make life miserable with a work stoppage though. Most times your immediate managers have very limited control of salary decisions and certainly your team mates and customers have almost none. While you may have a professional disagreement with your company about compensation please don't let that ruin your personal reputation and relationships by doing sub par work, continue to build that reputation and relationships with excellent work. As a personal example I had a compensation disagreement with a company I worked for. After not getting the raise I requested from my manager I still delivered a superior product that is the basis of that companies business to this day. Up until I left for a better paying job 6 months later I did everything I could to deliver the best for my team mates and customers. Two years later my former manager became VP at a new start up and hired me on with a solid salary and equity because we still had a strong personal and professional relationship even if the company we had previously worked for had problems.
TheCondor 11y ago
"Live up to it" is why you say when you, the manager initiate the discussion for a promotion. When the worker comes to you and says "I'm underpaid I need a raise" It's really the manager that needs to live up to it.. In general everyone should try to kick ass every day. Imagine how much better the world would be..
TheCondor 11y ago
"Live up to it" is why you say when you, the manager initiate the discussion for a promotion. When the worker comes to you and says "I'm underpaid I need a raise" It's really the manager that needs to live up to it.. In general everyone should try to kick ass every day. Imagine how much better the world would be..

by harryh 11y ago

Tehnix 11y ago

This is actually the reason that I prefer changing jobs instead of asking for a raise. Asking for a raise puts me in a position where I have to perform extra to be "worthy" of that raise, while it might have been that my initial salary was way lower than my market value. Why then add the much increased pressure of asking a raise and the uncomfortable conversations that surely does ensue, when you end up in a much better position by simply looking for other offers. In final, I would actually say that I strongly disagree with your advice, and you're (at least that attitude) the type of team that I would probably leave. Your base assumption is wrong to begin with. The raise doesn't come from the employee having to do extra work, no it comes from them currently being undervalued and their current salary not being indicative of their current value, i.e. the raise is should not entail more worth, but is there to match the current level of worth of the employee.

harryh 11y ago
There is obviously a lot of nuance here. Certainly more than I covered in my 4 sentence comment. Generally with most companies there will be a salary range for most positions. You're right that if that salary range is out of wack with the prevailing market rates the company is unlikely to retain good people (or attract them in the first place). But assuming the range has been set more or less correctly you're likely to have a salary at least in the ballpark of what's appropriate. My point was really about pushing your manager to go towards the high end of that range (either for a new job offer or a raise at an existing job. doesn't matter). As long as you've got some ammo in your corner this will generally be possible. But then afterwards I go back to what I said. Live up to it so your manager doesn't end up regretting his decision.
scintill76 11y ago
Aren't you going to start under some additional pressure at your new job, to make a good impression and show you were "worthy" of being hired, and at the price you're being paid?

dpweb 11y ago

Agree, as a manager of 15 people, there's 1 or 2 superstars I would say pay them almost whatever they want - if they demanded it (which they don't). They're worth it. Only true for the highest performers however.

vosper 11y ago
Are you also empowered to make that decision yourself?
throwaway151 11y ago
Throwaway cause I'm a lurker and don't really care. Just sharing a contrarian experience... As a manager of 7, formerly 10, those 'non-superstars' can easily go find a job elsewhere as well. Remember, these are engineers. "Superstars" or not, they're not stupid. The demand is there. When management balked at requests to bump pay (not even that much, and only to bring it in line for the region) for people they didn't think were 'rockstars', they walked off to better offers (I don't have authority here to bump pay without approvals). It's created a bit of a headache. Not only do we have to find replacements, which is time consuming, folks are concerned they may not be considered a superstar (it hasn't been stated so succinctly, but the conversations have that vibe). And in the long run, it was decided to raise pay across the board to reflect the increase in the area. Be fair to your employees as a whole. Assess their overall contribution to the company. Not just number of commits, LOC, or that the wrote some really cool but useless feature in no time at all (really hate when my boss beams over having folks like that here, fortunately they're not on my team).
- seiji 11y ago
  Fun related story: a few years ago, Google was hiring entire teams from Microsoft away to work on Google-only projects. After noticing the ongoing pattern, Microsoft just doubled the salaries of entire teams over night. 90k -> 180k. 110k -> 220k. That stopped the Google drain for a while.
brianobush 11y ago
I find superstars harder to manage than regular engineers. Yes, they are amazing but sometimes, enjoy going their own direction which can be hard to manage and sculpt into the group motion going forward.

michaelochurch 11y ago

After you negotiate the raise, make sure you live up to it. I disagree, not with the advice (obviously, living up to the new expectations is better than falling short of them) but with the attitude (often espoused by management) that a bump in your compensation comes with a harder job. Often it comes with an easier job. The intellectual demands may get higher, but the emotional demands of subordination tend to go away when you go from a $90k junior peon to a $135k trusted senior to a $180k VP-level fellow who gets to call technical shots. When I was a junior, I had to maintain shit code written in languages I hated, and if I struggled with something and pointed to the bad code, that'd be met with suspicion because I was lower on the totem pole. Now I get to pick tools most of the time and if I say that something is hard and needs to be done a different way, people believe me. The technical challenges have become harder as I've risen, but the jobs get easier and way better on the whole. Eight years ago I wouldn't just grab a side office and write some code (I probably could have, but I was insecure and young and felt a need to be in the open-plan environment for 8 straight hours, panic attacks be damned). Now, I know that I have sufficient status that I can do that, and that matters a huge amount. Technical challenges (the part of work that I enjoy) going up and the emotional load of being low-ranking (that slowly kills a person) going down is a win on both fronts. Of course, if my company gets taken over and everyone has to typecast to a junior ScrumDrone-- "Agile" is "how to be a 2x Junior Developer"-- then I'll be laid off shortly after because I'm massively overpaid for a ScrumDrone. No one who takes "user stories" seriously is worth what I make, so the minute I hear people talking about Scrum (bringing down the 10xers to turn the 0.2x into 0.6x) I get nervous. If you're planning to ask for a raise, you need to kick ass before you go in and ask for it. And you should really ask for a promotion (not, "boss, I want your job", but more responsibility and perhaps a title improvement so long as it doesn't put you in the awkward position of outranking your manager) rather than just asking for more money for the same job (an unattractive proposition to the boss, no matter what). In general, this happens incrementally. You ask for a 15% raise and only get 5%, so you ask for a title bump, even if it doesn't mean you take on reports. Because of the title bump, you get better projects, you're taken more seriously, you suffer less emotional load and perform better, and you're also in a higher bonus pool. Two years later when the company is flush with cash, you get a 25% raise without asking because you're actually the lowest paid VP and they've decided to correct that. Working hard matters the most in the 3-6 months before you ask for the new responsibilities, promotion, and of course the pay increase that come with it (or, at least, can come with it). Then you settle into the new role and it doesn't matter that much how hard you work (average to average-plus effort is fine) so long as people like you and you follow the "become part of the team before trying to become its leader" principle. The before- and after-negotiation phases have different rules, but the former is harder on the whole. Of course, people who are smart about this will negotiate continuously, involving themselves with (or starting) big projects without asking for permission, delegating the less interesting tasks to (preferably eager) juniors even if they don't formally manage them, making changes to your arrangements (WFH, taking a seat with a wall at your back) to improve your productivity, and generally feeling out what their position actually is. If you don't continuously negotiate, you're probably not going to feel comfortable marching into someone's office and asking for $20k more, and you probably haven't done the micro-negotiation ground work (getting your title in line, getting your best projects noticed and your weak spots ignored, delegating the work that won't help your case or make your important projects succeed) necessary to make the raise seem like an obvious "yes".

chuckcode 11y ago

As a manager of engineers I would definitely recommend showing up and trying to kick ass every day no matter what. If you're feeling like you're under paid feel free to discuss it with your manager and get another job if you feel that is the right move for yourself. Please don't show up and sulk at work and make life miserable with a work stoppage though. Most times your immediate managers have very limited control of salary decisions and certainly your team mates and customers have almost none. While you may have a professional disagreement with your company about compensation please don't let that ruin your personal reputation and relationships by doing sub par work, continue to build that reputation and relationships with excellent work. As a personal example I had a compensation disagreement with a company I worked for. After not getting the raise I requested from my manager I still delivered a superior product that is the basis of that companies business to this day. Up until I left for a better paying job 6 months later I did everything I could to deliver the best for my team mates and customers. Two years later my former manager became VP at a new start up and hired me on with a solid salary and equity because we still had a strong personal and professional relationship even if the company we had previously worked for had problems.

TheCondor 11y ago

"Live up to it" is why you say when you, the manager initiate the discussion for a promotion. When the worker comes to you and says "I'm underpaid I need a raise" It's really the manager that needs to live up to it.. In general everyone should try to kick ass every day. Imagine how much better the world would be..

TheCondor 11y ago