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> Companies are falling all over themselves to bring in more women. In the HN echo chamber maybe. I still think hiring managers are thinking "maternity leave"

> Companies are falling all over themselves to bring in more women. In the HN echo chamber maybe. I still think hiring managers are thinking "maternity leave" especially in the US.

Someone1234 11y ago
Which is odd as the US offers no maternity leave. A handful of states have a little but it is often UNPAID maternity leave making it all but worthless.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Which is odd as the US offers no maternity leave. A handful of states have a little but it is often UNPAID maternity leave making it all but worthless. That's a bit confused. The US requires unpaid maternity (and other) leave via FMLA; a few states also provide some degree of paid maternity leave. (In both cases, "maternity" is overly specific, but included, in what is generally described -- as in the title of FMLA -- as "family and medical leave".) [0] [0] http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-family-and-medical-leave-laws.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-fami...
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    FMLA has so many loopholes it may have well not exist at all: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/1421.htm#2a http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/1421.htm#2a Plus let's be honest, unpaid maternity leave is worthless even if the FMLA worked (it doesn't). That isn't maternity leave, that's "job assurance" if people cannot afford to take leave, they won't. Its as simple as that. The US is by far the worst western country when it comes to guaranteeing that mothers and fathers will be able to spend time with their kids in the all important first year. Don't even get me started on how bad the US treats single parents.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      Upthread, you claimed: (1) The US has no national maternity leave provision, and (2) A few states provide maternity leave, but even that is only unpaid. The fact is, the US does have a national unpaid maternity leave provision, and a few states provide paid maternity leave. > FMLA has so many loopholes it may have well not exist at all FMLA covers about 60% of all employees, and is used by about 13% annually. So, while it certainly doesn't cover everyone, it certainly has considerably more effect than if it did not exist at all. > Plus let's be honest, unpaid maternity leave is worthless even if the FMLA worked (it doesn't). That isn't maternity leave, that's "job assurance" if people cannot afford to take leave, they won't. Its true that unpaid maternity leave obviously isn't as good as paid leave, and people are less likely to take it at all, and likely to take less of it than they would if the lead were paid. That doesn't change the fact that the existence of FMLA as a national source of unpaid maternity leave makes your early claim that there was no US national maternity leave, even unpaid, false, nor does it change the fact that the existence of state paid maternity leave programs makes your further claim that the few states that offered maternity leave offered only unpaid leave also false. > The US is by far the worst western country when it comes to guaranteeing that mothers and fathers will be able to spend time with their kids in the all important first year. That's rather clearly true, but not what you claimed upthread, and, more importantly, would have been irrelevant where you made the claim upthread about the nonexistence of required maternity leave in the US, since the US's relative position on maternity leave is immaterial to the issue, which is that hiring managers might avoid hiring women because they might take maternity leave. Since most positions are covered by FMLA, and since FMLA does provide for maternity leave that employees have a right to take, hiring managers might well be considering that, even if the US maternity leave provisions are poor compared to every other developed (not just "western") country.
      - Someone1234 11y ago
        Congratulations you've nitpicked my remark to death. But I won't conceded that what the US calls "Maternity Leave" is not in fact it by any modern standard of the term, it is nothing more than a job assurance program that even according to you only reaches 60% of people. And out of them few can afford it (and even them not for its full duration). A handful of US states offer legitimate Maternity Leave and they should be congratulated for that. The federal government should be ashamed, FMLA is pathetic, and their inaction lets people (both parents & children) down daily. To be honest I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. That the US is awesome? That maternity leave is fine? That you just want to be "right?" If it is the first two points then we'll never reach consensus and if it is the last point then this is all a waste of time.
dragonwriter 11y ago
Companies and hiring managers aren't actually the same thing, and the former failing to align internal incentives properly with goals can often cause the former and the latter to have divergent interests.

> Companies are falling all over themselves to bring in more women. In the HN echo chamber maybe. I still think hiring managers are thinking "maternity leave" especially in the US.

Someone1234 11y ago

Which is odd as the US offers no maternity leave. A handful of states have a little but it is often UNPAID maternity leave making it all but worthless.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> Which is odd as the US offers no maternity leave. A handful of states have a little but it is often UNPAID maternity leave making it all but worthless. That's a bit confused. The US requires unpaid maternity (and other) leave via FMLA; a few states also provide some degree of paid maternity leave. (In both cases, "maternity" is overly specific, but included, in what is generally described -- as in the title of FMLA -- as "family and medical leave".) [0] [0] http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-family-and-medical-leave-laws.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-fami...
- Someone1234 11y ago
  FMLA has so many loopholes it may have well not exist at all: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/1421.htm#2a http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/1421.htm#2a Plus let's be honest, unpaid maternity leave is worthless even if the FMLA worked (it doesn't). That isn't maternity leave, that's "job assurance" if people cannot afford to take leave, they won't. Its as simple as that. The US is by far the worst western country when it comes to guaranteeing that mothers and fathers will be able to spend time with their kids in the all important first year. Don't even get me started on how bad the US treats single parents.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Upthread, you claimed: (1) The US has no national maternity leave provision, and (2) A few states provide maternity leave, but even that is only unpaid. The fact is, the US does have a national unpaid maternity leave provision, and a few states provide paid maternity leave. > FMLA has so many loopholes it may have well not exist at all FMLA covers about 60% of all employees, and is used by about 13% annually. So, while it certainly doesn't cover everyone, it certainly has considerably more effect than if it did not exist at all. > Plus let's be honest, unpaid maternity leave is worthless even if the FMLA worked (it doesn't). That isn't maternity leave, that's "job assurance" if people cannot afford to take leave, they won't. Its true that unpaid maternity leave obviously isn't as good as paid leave, and people are less likely to take it at all, and likely to take less of it than they would if the lead were paid. That doesn't change the fact that the existence of FMLA as a national source of unpaid maternity leave makes your early claim that there was no US national maternity leave, even unpaid, false, nor does it change the fact that the existence of state paid maternity leave programs makes your further claim that the few states that offered maternity leave offered only unpaid leave also false. > The US is by far the worst western country when it comes to guaranteeing that mothers and fathers will be able to spend time with their kids in the all important first year. That's rather clearly true, but not what you claimed upthread, and, more importantly, would have been irrelevant where you made the claim upthread about the nonexistence of required maternity leave in the US, since the US's relative position on maternity leave is immaterial to the issue, which is that hiring managers might avoid hiring women because they might take maternity leave. Since most positions are covered by FMLA, and since FMLA does provide for maternity leave that employees have a right to take, hiring managers might well be considering that, even if the US maternity leave provisions are poor compared to every other developed (not just "western") country.
    - Someone1234 11y ago
      Congratulations you've nitpicked my remark to death. But I won't conceded that what the US calls "Maternity Leave" is not in fact it by any modern standard of the term, it is nothing more than a job assurance program that even according to you only reaches 60% of people. And out of them few can afford it (and even them not for its full duration). A handful of US states offer legitimate Maternity Leave and they should be congratulated for that. The federal government should be ashamed, FMLA is pathetic, and their inaction lets people (both parents & children) down daily. To be honest I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. That the US is awesome? That maternity leave is fine? That you just want to be "right?" If it is the first two points then we'll never reach consensus and if it is the last point then this is all a waste of time.

dragonwriter 11y ago

Companies and hiring managers aren't actually the same thing, and the former failing to align internal incentives properly with goals can often cause the former and the latter to have divergent interests.