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Opportunities to pursue interests != career choice A lot of things are interesting to a lot of people. That does not mean they are competent in it to make it a

by NTDF9 11y ago

Opportunities to pursue interests != career choice A lot of things are interesting to a lot of people. That does not mean they are competent in it to make it a viable career. In other words, even if I "think" I like something, doesn't mean I'm actually going to thrive in that occupation in the real world. I used to play for local soccer teams. That did not translate to Ronaldo-level paychecks. Another example: I used to be uber-good at math. Does that mean that I'll survive the stresses of HFT? I don't think that's a guarantee. Those environments are brutal, full of abuse. It is a necessity in those environments. If I (a person, regardless of my gender) cannot survive that environment, I should not be taking that job...and not be expecting to do so either. I think many women completely miss the point that fairness is just equal opportunity to pursue your interests. "Just because you are interested" is not reason enough to land those jobs/careers. You need to work for it....just like any other man. Welcome to equality!

beat 11y ago
This is perilously close to arguing that women don't do engineering because they're not as smart as men. Either you're using competence to explain the disparities, or you're not. If you're not, then you need an explanation for the observable interest/career disparities. This is especially true for paths where gender bias is reflected in the low/high career paths within the same field (for example, nurses vs doctors). And if you're just saying women aren't as smart as men... well.
- NTDF9 11y ago
  >> This is perilously close to arguing that women don't do engineering because they're not as smart as men. Smart is the wrong word. It gives the analysis a different connotation. I think the word we are looking for is aptitude. Among men, there are many who have the aptitude to do STEM. Then there are other men who don't....and that is fine. I think the same goes for women. Many women have the aptitude...but many don't. >> Either you're using competence to explain the disparities, or you're not. If you're not, then you need an explanation for the observable interest/career disparities. This is especially true for paths where gender bias is reflected in the low/high career paths within the same field (for example, nurses vs doctors). I am using competence. And competence is not just inherent. Competence is developed. This is called schooling. A lot of girls spend their teen ages trying to look good and be popular(mostly because of social expectations and peer pressure). They buckle under that pressure and choose to not study as their nerdy-male counterparts. When they grow up, the nerdy-males get into high-flying jobs/careers while the females struggle to compete with them in the real world. That's why interest != competence It takes work. Nobody stopped those women from pursuing the hard stuff. They did it to themselves. You can't have everything. Nobody can. Not even men.
  - beat 11y ago
    I was going to critique this argument, but then my mouth just open and closed over and over, silently. Really? You're serious? Women aren't as smart (or competent, to use your euphemism) as men because they would rather be popular and pretty? That men do the "hard stuff" while women stop themselves? You're serious? Oh, dude. You really need to talk to some women.
    - NTDF9 11y ago
      >> Really? You're serious? Women aren't as smart (or competent, to use your euphemism) as men because they would rather be popular and pretty? That men do the "hard stuff" while women stop themselves? Not all men do the "hard stuff". There are enough men who don't put in the work in their formative years. Those men don't get to cry unfair. These men know that they spent their time partying, fooling around and generally not developing their competence in something. What I mean is people (men and women) should realize that you can't expect anything without putting in the work. Put in the work and then if you see unfair treatment you are entitled to complain. Once again, "smart" is the wrong word. >> Oh, dude. You really need to talk to some women. Thanks for the personal attack. I'll ask my current GF and my female friends to help me find these mythical "women" you speak of.
      - beat 11y ago
        Be sure to ask her if she thinks she was ever discouraged from entering male dominated fields, if she gave up academics in favor of popularity, and if she's ever faced sexism as an adult. You might be surprised.
        NTDF9 11y ago
        You mean I should ask her why she's taking advanced stats classes in her male-dominated PhD program? Clearly she saw the opportunity and took it instead of complaining. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being very successful. She's doing more than most people (men or women). Also, thanks for reminding me why I like her.
    - 11y ago
SolaceQuantum 11y ago
> I think many women completely miss the point that fairness is just equal opportunity to pursue your interests. What might be being implied is that women inherently don't have equal opportunity to pursue interests, if a bunch of women are interested and somehow never enter the field in comparison to men who show interest and enter the field in rates according to interest.
- NTDF9 11y ago
  > What might be being implied is that women inherently don't have equal opportunity to pursue interests, if a bunch of women are interested and somehow never enter the field in comparison to men who show interest and enter the field in rates according to interest Well, most male software engineers in the world aspire to become rich and famous like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Does that mean every single male has equal opportunity to become one? Women nowadays have full access to all kinds of education, all kinds of scholarships, all kinds of resources (as much as any man). If they don't take those things to pursue their interests, what else can be done? Are you suggesting women should have a red carpet laid out to enter any field? Why? Where is equality then?

by NTDF9 11y ago

beat 11y ago

This is perilously close to arguing that women don't do engineering because they're not as smart as men. Either you're using competence to explain the disparities, or you're not. If you're not, then you need an explanation for the observable interest/career disparities. This is especially true for paths where gender bias is reflected in the low/high career paths within the same field (for example, nurses vs doctors). And if you're just saying women aren't as smart as men... well.

NTDF9 11y ago
>> This is perilously close to arguing that women don't do engineering because they're not as smart as men. Smart is the wrong word. It gives the analysis a different connotation. I think the word we are looking for is aptitude. Among men, there are many who have the aptitude to do STEM. Then there are other men who don't....and that is fine. I think the same goes for women. Many women have the aptitude...but many don't. >> Either you're using competence to explain the disparities, or you're not. If you're not, then you need an explanation for the observable interest/career disparities. This is especially true for paths where gender bias is reflected in the low/high career paths within the same field (for example, nurses vs doctors). I am using competence. And competence is not just inherent. Competence is developed. This is called schooling. A lot of girls spend their teen ages trying to look good and be popular(mostly because of social expectations and peer pressure). They buckle under that pressure and choose to not study as their nerdy-male counterparts. When they grow up, the nerdy-males get into high-flying jobs/careers while the females struggle to compete with them in the real world. That's why interest != competence It takes work. Nobody stopped those women from pursuing the hard stuff. They did it to themselves. You can't have everything. Nobody can. Not even men.
- beat 11y ago
  I was going to critique this argument, but then my mouth just open and closed over and over, silently. Really? You're serious? Women aren't as smart (or competent, to use your euphemism) as men because they would rather be popular and pretty? That men do the "hard stuff" while women stop themselves? You're serious? Oh, dude. You really need to talk to some women.
  - NTDF9 11y ago
    >> Really? You're serious? Women aren't as smart (or competent, to use your euphemism) as men because they would rather be popular and pretty? That men do the "hard stuff" while women stop themselves? Not all men do the "hard stuff". There are enough men who don't put in the work in their formative years. Those men don't get to cry unfair. These men know that they spent their time partying, fooling around and generally not developing their competence in something. What I mean is people (men and women) should realize that you can't expect anything without putting in the work. Put in the work and then if you see unfair treatment you are entitled to complain. Once again, "smart" is the wrong word. >> Oh, dude. You really need to talk to some women. Thanks for the personal attack. I'll ask my current GF and my female friends to help me find these mythical "women" you speak of.
    - beat 11y ago
      Be sure to ask her if she thinks she was ever discouraged from entering male dominated fields, if she gave up academics in favor of popularity, and if she's ever faced sexism as an adult. You might be surprised.
      - NTDF9 11y ago
        You mean I should ask her why she's taking advanced stats classes in her male-dominated PhD program? Clearly she saw the opportunity and took it instead of complaining. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being very successful. She's doing more than most people (men or women). Also, thanks for reminding me why I like her.
  - 11y ago

SolaceQuantum 11y ago

> I think many women completely miss the point that fairness is just equal opportunity to pursue your interests. What might be being implied is that women inherently don't have equal opportunity to pursue interests, if a bunch of women are interested and somehow never enter the field in comparison to men who show interest and enter the field in rates according to interest.

NTDF9 11y ago
> What might be being implied is that women inherently don't have equal opportunity to pursue interests, if a bunch of women are interested and somehow never enter the field in comparison to men who show interest and enter the field in rates according to interest Well, most male software engineers in the world aspire to become rich and famous like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Does that mean every single male has equal opportunity to become one? Women nowadays have full access to all kinds of education, all kinds of scholarships, all kinds of resources (as much as any man). If they don't take those things to pursue their interests, what else can be done? Are you suggesting women should have a red carpet laid out to enter any field? Why? Where is equality then?