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/me sighs Where to start? First, to your (horribly sexist) implication that women opt out of the workforce by studying "Gender or Women's Studies": it isn't e

by rcoder 11y ago

/me sighs Where to start? First, to your (horribly sexist) implication that women opt out of the workforce by studying "Gender or Women's Studies": it isn't even in the top 10 majors for women. You know what the #1 major for women is? Business. http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/02/top-10-college-majors-women-forbes-woman-leadership-education.html http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/02/top-10-college-majors-women... Biology, math, and physics are all also popular majors for women: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/28/359419934/who-studies-what-men-women-and-college-majors http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/28/359419934/who-s... Calling out "previous work experience" is similarly just so much BS. If women are excluded through systematic bias in hiring (hint: they are!) then they literally can't earn that experience. Furthermore there's a compounded effect, as fewer and fewer women make it up through each tier of the hiring/promotion filter. Even the article you cited calls out gender disparities in academia. While only 22% of CS PhDs were given to women, they made up an even more minuscule 14% of CS faculty. tl;dr: the system is rigged and women don't get a fair shake. Stop victim-blaming.

tosseraccount 11y ago
Don't more women attend college than men? Hasn't that been true for 40 years?
batbomb 11y ago
As someone who majored in Physics and minored in Math, there was quite a bit of women in the Math department and a few women in Physics, but both had much more women than the entry level CS class I took, and I'm not sure there were any that I can remember in the one, large, entry-level EE class I took. I did graduate 2008/2009, and tried to find a job for a while without much luck, partially because employers were (short-sightedly) specifically looking for EE/CS degrees. That's where I think the second part of this problem lies: Majoring in math and physical sciences, specifically with only a BS, doesn't get you very far in a job market when even entry level positions are heavily favoring CS and EE degrees... even though most STEM degrees usually share a common pedigree of math, sciences, and basic programming skills. In many cases, students who are able to do any kind of research as an undergrad in math or physical sciences will have quite adequate and advanced programming skills, but that's still harder to market than a engineering degree.
Nadya 11y ago
>While only 22% of CS PhDs were given to women, they made up an even more minuscule 14% of CS faculty. Not everyone who obtains a degree later chooses to enter their field of study. A degree also does not guarantee a job. This is yet another example of trying to misuse statistics as a form of confirmation bias. Looking at statistics from this Slate article [0], since 2003 only <50%~ of Engineer PHD's are employed. What that means is that of those 22% CS PhDs roughly 11% would be the the number who are employed in the end assuming no gender discrimination beyond obtaining the degree. Given the data is 3 years out of date, it's possible employment rate has jumped to 63% (the highest its been since 1998!) and that 14% is exactly on-par for the course for having no gender discrimination (against or in favor of) women. A more realistic estimate is that the employment rate is still at 50% or below and 14% is actually discrimination in favor of hiring women given less than 11% should be hired at current employment rates. >First, to your (horribly sexist) implication that women opt out of the workforce by studying "Gender or Women's Studies": it isn't even in the top 10 majors for women. It was one example of a major dominated by women that is useless for holding any of the jobs listed as "liked". They also "opt out of the Engineering work force" by majoring in Biology, Business, and Psychology and not Engineering if you feel that using Gender Studies was somehow sexist. [0] http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/07/employment_rates_for_stem_ph_d_s_it_s_a_stagnant_job_market_for_young_scientists.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/07/empl...
- rcoder 11y ago
  I know I'm feeding the trolls here, but this just demands an answer: "Given the data is 3 years out of date, it's possible employment rate has jumped to 63% (the highest its been since 1998!) and that 14% is exactly on-par for the course for having no gender discrimination (against or in favor of) women." This is basically middle-school level math and you're doing it wrong. Whatever percentage of newly-minted CS PhDs go on to teach, the ratios of men and women working as professions should be roughly the same as those earning degrees: 78% and 22%, respectively. Instead, it appears that a disproportionate number of women are "somehow" not ending up in teaching positions. In a truly fair world those numbers would be much closer to 50/50, but that's a separate discussion.

by rcoder 11y ago

tosseraccount 11y ago

Don't more women attend college than men? Hasn't that been true for 40 years?

batbomb 11y ago

As someone who majored in Physics and minored in Math, there was quite a bit of women in the Math department and a few women in Physics, but both had much more women than the entry level CS class I took, and I'm not sure there were any that I can remember in the one, large, entry-level EE class I took. I did graduate 2008/2009, and tried to find a job for a while without much luck, partially because employers were (short-sightedly) specifically looking for EE/CS degrees. That's where I think the second part of this problem lies: Majoring in math and physical sciences, specifically with only a BS, doesn't get you very far in a job market when even entry level positions are heavily favoring CS and EE degrees... even though most STEM degrees usually share a common pedigree of math, sciences, and basic programming skills. In many cases, students who are able to do any kind of research as an undergrad in math or physical sciences will have quite adequate and advanced programming skills, but that's still harder to market than a engineering degree.

Nadya 11y ago

>While only 22% of CS PhDs were given to women, they made up an even more minuscule 14% of CS faculty. Not everyone who obtains a degree later chooses to enter their field of study. A degree also does not guarantee a job. This is yet another example of trying to misuse statistics as a form of confirmation bias. Looking at statistics from this Slate article [0], since 2003 only <50%~ of Engineer PHD's are employed. What that means is that of those 22% CS PhDs roughly 11% would be the the number who are employed in the end assuming no gender discrimination beyond obtaining the degree. Given the data is 3 years out of date, it's possible employment rate has jumped to 63% (the highest its been since 1998!) and that 14% is exactly on-par for the course for having no gender discrimination (against or in favor of) women. A more realistic estimate is that the employment rate is still at 50% or below and 14% is actually discrimination in favor of hiring women given less than 11% should be hired at current employment rates. >First, to your (horribly sexist) implication that women opt out of the workforce by studying "Gender or Women's Studies": it isn't even in the top 10 majors for women. It was one example of a major dominated by women that is useless for holding any of the jobs listed as "liked". They also "opt out of the Engineering work force" by majoring in Biology, Business, and Psychology and not Engineering if you feel that using Gender Studies was somehow sexist. [0] http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/07/employment_rates_for_stem_ph_d_s_it_s_a_stagnant_job_market_for_young_scientists.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/07/empl...

rcoder 11y ago
I know I'm feeding the trolls here, but this just demands an answer: "Given the data is 3 years out of date, it's possible employment rate has jumped to 63% (the highest its been since 1998!) and that 14% is exactly on-par for the course for having no gender discrimination (against or in favor of) women." This is basically middle-school level math and you're doing it wrong. Whatever percentage of newly-minted CS PhDs go on to teach, the ratios of men and women working as professions should be roughly the same as those earning degrees: 78% and 22%, respectively. Instead, it appears that a disproportionate number of women are "somehow" not ending up in teaching positions. In a truly fair world those numbers would be much closer to 50/50, but that's a separate discussion.