7 ms·

What rules that had been there for tens of years were broken by IE6? IE6 was the best browser available when it was released, and the web standards ecosystem wa

What rules that had been there for tens of years were broken by IE6? IE6 was the best browser available when it was released, and the web standards ecosystem was nothing like it is today. I think the analogy is very clear. If you want to code like it's 2000, supporting IE6 is easy, because IE6 is a very good 2000 browser. If you want to code like it's 2010, supporting Safari is easy, because Safari is a very good 2010 browser. But in both cases, if you want to use any new features that have been standardized and are supported by other browsers, you're fucked. The main difference I see is that IE6 didn't get any updates at all. Safari gets updates, but many new features are missing or broken. EDIT: Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous...

anonymousguy 11y ago
Perhaps the biggest thing is that IE6 had a broken CSS box model.
- smrtinsert 11y ago
  It's so easy to be cavalier about random popular facts. I would love for someone to go back and load up the alternative browsers available at the time on some vms and take stock of their featuresets. Factoring in popularity at the time I'm pretty sure not much would have changed.
- strmpnk 11y ago
  Also ironic given that most people have adopted some of that "broken CSS box model" in their CSS. box-sizing: border-box; Now there were many other problems but I'm not sure people appreciate how such features eventually got standardized. Similar issues happened around DOM serialization with APIs like innerHTML, which Netscape refused to adopt because of "series of pointing at standards". Developers ended up adopting the idea and it was later standardized. XHR is another case. There are many more. In the case of Safari, I can think of canvas, touch (love or hate it vs pointer events it was before any of the alternatives), DPI independence, &c. It's some of these quirks that seems to show how newer web standards might be rushed through by increasingly aggressive vendor involvement. Apple hasn't changed all that much from when it first released Safari. It's only our expectations for the pace of new additions that has.
- taf2 11y ago
  Or that Safari has no support for WebRTC.
- wmil 11y ago
  IE5.5 had the broken box model. IE6 used the standard box model if the site had a recognized !DOCTYPE and the 5.5 model if it didn't. Web dev was "fun" in the early 2000s. Also console.log and javascript debuggers didn't exist. Working with complex JS got really interesting really quickly.
  - TheAnimus 11y ago
    Fairly sure I remember using VisualStudio to debug some JavaScript back in the early 00s.
    - wmil 11y ago
      I only found out about that in 2014, so I didn't include it. But I've heard it was possible.
smrtinsert 11y ago
Absolutely the truth. There was a reason the only answer was tables for a very long time. A major source of hatred for IE was the fact the IE team did work prior to the browser standards, a practice which is now standard operating procedure. Where would be without ajax?
collyw 11y ago
"Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous..." Why has that not resulted in anti competitive behavior lawsuits? MS got in to a fair bit of trouble for similar things. They didn't stop you installing an alternative.
- yzmtf2008 11y ago
  Because Apple does allow you to install other browsers. But then again that depends on how you define browsers...
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Let's define it as apps that actually use a different browser engine, and aren't merely a reskin of the exact same engine used in Safari. In short, something that is actually capable of supporting new features that Safari doesn't. This is not possible on iOS without a jailbreak, because Apple simply doesn't allow alternative browser engines to be used.
    - briandear 11y ago
      Why not? Apple also doesn't allow Flash, so the question is, why? Does Apple make money from Safari? Is there a technical reason that might preclude another browser engine?
      - mikeash 11y ago
        That is an excellent question I'm afraid I have no answer to.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - thm76 11y ago
        My understanding was that they don't want to allow executing downloaded code that hasn't gone through the App Store review (such as JavaScript in web pages). I think they allow Lua for scripting in games, though. So, basically, a 3rd party JavaScript engine is not allowed. I guess you could write your own browser engine that doesn't support JavaScript. I guess Flash was not allowed for performance and security reasons (lots of vulnerabilities, right?)
vlunkr 11y ago
You can install other browsers on iOS.
- streptomycin 11y ago
  No, you can't. You can install wrappers around Safari, but you can't install any app that uses the rendering engine of Chrome, Firefox, IE, or any other browser better than Safari.
  - m1sta_ 11y ago
    Chrome for ios is a wrapper for safari? Are you sure? Safari and chrome definitely render certain pages differently when both running on the same iOS device.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Absolutely sure. Apple is totally transparent about this being a requirement for them: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ "2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript"
    - santaclaus 11y ago
      Gruber claims it is: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios
    - dykesa 11y ago
      I'm also sure. At least for mobile devices. I can't speak to desktop Chrome. That's why it does the same weird rendering Safari does which has become more noticeable since the split from webkit.
    - Polyphonie 11y ago
      There's one discernible difference between Chrome and Safari on iOS 8- try scrolling on both and you'll see that both render them differently. Much faster on Chrome and less so on Safari. Prior to iOS 8, scrolling on both browsers were very much the same.
piyush_soni 11y ago
If I'm not wrong, Apple allows you to install Chrome on iOS? Of course for a long time they didn't allow other browsers to use their Nitro Engine (so deliberately forced them to stay slower), but seems now they allow that as well ... Again, it doesn't allow them to be made as the 'default' browser - which in itself is a big reason to criticize them.
- cdelsolar 11y ago
  You're not wrong, I'm looking at Chrome on my iPhone right now, I don't know what parent is talking about.
  - ris 11y ago
    Dig a bit deeper. That is only a Chrome shell around (a slightly crippled) safari.
    - piyush_soni 11y ago
      Aah. I knew it 'used to be' the case, but didn't know that it is still the case, especially after Apple started allowing other apps to use the Nitro Engine (WKWebView). Just came to know that due to other technical limitations by Apple, Chrome still can't use it [0]. [0] : Chromium Bug: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=423444 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=423444
nmesse 11y ago
Apple does not block people from installing better browsers (I know a couple). They did, back in the day, when they couldn't find a way to make Nitro (their web engine) secure.

anonymousguy 11y ago

Perhaps the biggest thing is that IE6 had a broken CSS box model.

smrtinsert 11y ago
It's so easy to be cavalier about random popular facts. I would love for someone to go back and load up the alternative browsers available at the time on some vms and take stock of their featuresets. Factoring in popularity at the time I'm pretty sure not much would have changed.
strmpnk 11y ago
Also ironic given that most people have adopted some of that "broken CSS box model" in their CSS. box-sizing: border-box; Now there were many other problems but I'm not sure people appreciate how such features eventually got standardized. Similar issues happened around DOM serialization with APIs like innerHTML, which Netscape refused to adopt because of "series of pointing at standards". Developers ended up adopting the idea and it was later standardized. XHR is another case. There are many more. In the case of Safari, I can think of canvas, touch (love or hate it vs pointer events it was before any of the alternatives), DPI independence, &c. It's some of these quirks that seems to show how newer web standards might be rushed through by increasingly aggressive vendor involvement. Apple hasn't changed all that much from when it first released Safari. It's only our expectations for the pace of new additions that has.
taf2 11y ago
Or that Safari has no support for WebRTC.
wmil 11y ago
IE5.5 had the broken box model. IE6 used the standard box model if the site had a recognized !DOCTYPE and the 5.5 model if it didn't. Web dev was "fun" in the early 2000s. Also console.log and javascript debuggers didn't exist. Working with complex JS got really interesting really quickly.
- TheAnimus 11y ago
  Fairly sure I remember using VisualStudio to debug some JavaScript back in the early 00s.
  - wmil 11y ago
    I only found out about that in 2014, so I didn't include it. But I've heard it was possible.

smrtinsert 11y ago

Absolutely the truth. There was a reason the only answer was tables for a very long time. A major source of hatred for IE was the fact the IE team did work prior to the browser standards, a practice which is now standard operating procedure. Where would be without ajax?

collyw 11y ago

"Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous..." Why has that not resulted in anti competitive behavior lawsuits? MS got in to a fair bit of trouble for similar things. They didn't stop you installing an alternative.

yzmtf2008 11y ago
Because Apple does allow you to install other browsers. But then again that depends on how you define browsers...
- mikeash 11y ago
  Let's define it as apps that actually use a different browser engine, and aren't merely a reskin of the exact same engine used in Safari. In short, something that is actually capable of supporting new features that Safari doesn't. This is not possible on iOS without a jailbreak, because Apple simply doesn't allow alternative browser engines to be used.
  - briandear 11y ago
    Why not? Apple also doesn't allow Flash, so the question is, why? Does Apple make money from Safari? Is there a technical reason that might preclude another browser engine?
    - mikeash 11y ago
      That is an excellent question I'm afraid I have no answer to.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - thm76 11y ago
      My understanding was that they don't want to allow executing downloaded code that hasn't gone through the App Store review (such as JavaScript in web pages). I think they allow Lua for scripting in games, though. So, basically, a 3rd party JavaScript engine is not allowed. I guess you could write your own browser engine that doesn't support JavaScript. I guess Flash was not allowed for performance and security reasons (lots of vulnerabilities, right?)

vlunkr 11y ago

You can install other browsers on iOS.

streptomycin 11y ago
No, you can't. You can install wrappers around Safari, but you can't install any app that uses the rendering engine of Chrome, Firefox, IE, or any other browser better than Safari.
- m1sta_ 11y ago
  Chrome for ios is a wrapper for safari? Are you sure? Safari and chrome definitely render certain pages differently when both running on the same iOS device.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Absolutely sure. Apple is totally transparent about this being a requirement for them: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ "2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript"
  - santaclaus 11y ago
    Gruber claims it is: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios
  - dykesa 11y ago
    I'm also sure. At least for mobile devices. I can't speak to desktop Chrome. That's why it does the same weird rendering Safari does which has become more noticeable since the split from webkit.
  - Polyphonie 11y ago
    There's one discernible difference between Chrome and Safari on iOS 8- try scrolling on both and you'll see that both render them differently. Much faster on Chrome and less so on Safari. Prior to iOS 8, scrolling on both browsers were very much the same.

piyush_soni 11y ago

If I'm not wrong, Apple allows you to install Chrome on iOS? Of course for a long time they didn't allow other browsers to use their Nitro Engine (so deliberately forced them to stay slower), but seems now they allow that as well ... Again, it doesn't allow them to be made as the 'default' browser - which in itself is a big reason to criticize them.

cdelsolar 11y ago
You're not wrong, I'm looking at Chrome on my iPhone right now, I don't know what parent is talking about.
- ris 11y ago
  Dig a bit deeper. That is only a Chrome shell around (a slightly crippled) safari.
  - piyush_soni 11y ago
    Aah. I knew it 'used to be' the case, but didn't know that it is still the case, especially after Apple started allowing other apps to use the Nitro Engine (WKWebView). Just came to know that due to other technical limitations by Apple, Chrome still can't use it [0]. [0] : Chromium Bug: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=423444 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=423444

nmesse 11y ago

Apple does not block people from installing better browsers (I know a couple). They did, back in the day, when they couldn't find a way to make Nitro (their web engine) secure.