7 ms·

If Safari became a little too good, people might stop buying or developing apps.

by superiortoyou 11y ago

criswell 11y ago
Absolutely agreed. They want the web to lose.
- jenscow 11y ago
  Hence it being the new IE.
- Tloewald 11y ago
  Absolutely disagree. Apple wants to make the best experience for users because then they'll keep buying Apple products. If users want the web, then they make the browser better. If Apps are more appropriate, then they make apps better. Apple prioritizes stuff users care about -- battery life > IndexedDB, accessibility > WebGL. Until you understand this and stop thinking like a conspiracy theorist, you won't understand Apple and will keep confusing your priorities with user priorities. Again: pleasing users -> profit. Making web lose -> ??? This isn't "embrace and extend" -- Microsoft added huge swathes of proprietary functionality to IE and tended (and tends) to prioritize developer and corporate IT desires over users. Insofar as Apple extends the browser, they do it through standards and proposed standards and (mostly) open source the implementations.
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    Apple wants to make the best experience for users while maintaining vendor lock-in. iOS users invest hundreds of dollars in apps and games and enjoy exclusive products. This creates a very significant barrier to switch to another mobile platform. Quite obviously increased switching costs for users are important for iOS to maintain leadership in platform wars. Therefore, rapid advancement of web apps user experience to the level of native apps in some categories would be detrimental to Apple's competitive positions. Making web lose -> stronger competitive advantage.
    - Tloewald 11y ago
      Making web lose -> make users unhappy in short (and probably long) term, damage Apple's reputation in long term It's totally awesome how Google created its Play store so that it seamlessly works on competing platforms -- after all it's a largely open-source stack that would easily run on (say) iPhones. No wait, they use it as a bludgeon to keep third parties in line (and create vendor lock-in).
      - vdaniuk 11y ago
        > Making web lose -> make users unhappy in short term Sure, it decreases user satisfaction for a SUBSET of users, who care about web apps. This subset seems to be strategically negligible for Apple. This is a trade-off which is absolutely rational from the shareholders/management perspective. >It's totally awesome how Google created its Play store so that it seamlessly works on competing platforms Your fanboyism shows. This thread is not about Google, also a corporation which actions are driven by interests of management and shareholders.
        Tloewald 11y ago
        Ah yes, pointing out that your anti-Apple arguments are just as easily applied to Chrome/Google, Firefox/Mozilla, or IE/Microsoft makes me a fanboy. It's like Betteridge's Law for discussions involving Apple.
      - wstrange 11y ago
        Correct me if I am wrong, but how could Google ever create a play store for Apple iOS devices? Doesn't Apple forbid that?
        Tloewald 11y ago
        Non android badge android devices are my point.
  - Touche 11y ago
    Can you explain how fixing IndexedDB bugs hurts battery life? Can you explain how WebRTC hurts battery life?
    - etchalon 11y ago
      It doesn't hurt battery life. It just takes engineering hours away from working on battery life.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        But that argument can justify any deficiency in Safari, so it's unconvincing. Eventually you're just saying, "Apple don't care about all these new web things." Which is the point of TFA.
        Tloewald 11y ago
        How so? Let's suppose Safari has some horrible bug in it that exposes users to malware or whatever. (And it has had from time to time and Apple has been rightly pilloried for some of these cases.) Tell me how saying that Apple would rather improve user experience than add developer-friendly features justifies this.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        Different people will draw the line at different places. To you, the hypothetical malware vuln should be fixed before e.g. improving battery life by 5%. To some other user who is on a long plane journey without a power adapter and doesn't e.g. click on .flv links on specialty forums, maybe it shouldn't. But to a greedy fruit executive who wants the web to be insecure? There's no question! b^) This thread explores the possibility that, for strategic reasons, new web stuff is not implemented on Safari. That proposition is scarcely undermined by hypothesizing a typical user who doesn't care about new web stuff as much as she cares about battery life. She's hypothetical, why should she care about anything as much as she cares about battery life?
- kalleboo 11y ago
  If Apple really wanted to make Web Apps feel like a second class citizen, they wouldn't be adding Force Touch, custom AirPlay control support and Picture In Picture support to the upcoming version of Safari. Those are deep, native app level features that aren't even Web standards yet. I assume Apple is underinvesting in safari simply because they have bigger fish to fry, and they are notoriously understaffed with competent engineers (or have bad project management).
  - criswell 11y ago
    They're adding APIs that only benefit people using their hardware. Unless they open source AirPlay and whatever else they need to do for Force Touch I'm failing to see why I should be excited by that.
coldtea 11y ago
Which has been stated again and again, but was never an issue with Apple. First because what they make from the App Store is spare change for them. Second because they did have the best browser for a while, and did very much to advance the state of the art (from WebSQL, to Canvas, CSS 3D and other stuff, all originating there, along with the original fast-JITed JS engine who started the JS-race to what we have know). And they did that for years after they had an App platform available too.
- supster 11y ago
  The App Store may not be a money maker, but it definitely is a competitive advantage when selling iPhones over the competition esp. Android phones.
- fpgeek 11y ago
  It's not about the money from the app store, it's about the lock-in from apps, which is far more valuable.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Not much lock-in. Most apps are either cross platform or for casual use, and I could buy an Android phone and be productive tomorrow, transferring all my images, documents, contacts and such in a couple of hours. People don't feel locked with their app purchases. Case in point, the large volumes of people going from Android to iOS and vice versa.
- netfire 11y ago
  Curious where you are basing your revenue numbers from. Per Apple's reported statistics for 2014[1], developers pulled in $10 billion dollars in revenue from the app store. That means that Apple's revenue from the app store should also be in the low billions (based on the 70/30 cut they take from app store sales and purchases). All without manufacturing logistics and hardware production costs. Obviously the computing infrastructure, payment processing and software engineering of the app store has a cost, but I'd imagine much less than those involved with building, distributing and selling a computer or mobile device. It may not generate as much as hardware sales do, but billions of dollars hardly seems like spare change. [1] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/01/08App-Store-Rings-in-2015-with-New-Records.html?sr=hotnews.rss http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/01/08App-Store-Rings-in...
2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
I'm not sure you can pin this all on Apple. Back when the first iPhone was released Jobs was all "We have a great way for you to develop apps! ... HTML5!" All the developers were disappointed and wanted a native API. So here we are.
jfim 11y ago
It's not as if it's the first time Apple does it either. They positioned OS X as the best platform to run Java, yet ditched it a couple of years later. Even back then, people were complaining about it [0]. Developing on Mac has always been a chore (at least back in the XCode 1.1 and 2.0 days), with poorly documented APIs and APIs that are just flat out broken (OpenGL comes to mind, and is still broken to this day apparently). Our running joke back then was that "Macs are very user friendly, except developers don't count as users." Still true to this day apparently. [0] http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=13058 http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=13058

If Safari became a little too good, people might stop buying or developing apps.

criswell 11y ago

Absolutely agreed. They want the web to lose.

jenscow 11y ago
Hence it being the new IE.
Tloewald 11y ago
Absolutely disagree. Apple wants to make the best experience for users because then they'll keep buying Apple products. If users want the web, then they make the browser better. If Apps are more appropriate, then they make apps better. Apple prioritizes stuff users care about -- battery life > IndexedDB, accessibility > WebGL. Until you understand this and stop thinking like a conspiracy theorist, you won't understand Apple and will keep confusing your priorities with user priorities. Again: pleasing users -> profit. Making web lose -> ??? This isn't "embrace and extend" -- Microsoft added huge swathes of proprietary functionality to IE and tended (and tends) to prioritize developer and corporate IT desires over users. Insofar as Apple extends the browser, they do it through standards and proposed standards and (mostly) open source the implementations.
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  Apple wants to make the best experience for users while maintaining vendor lock-in. iOS users invest hundreds of dollars in apps and games and enjoy exclusive products. This creates a very significant barrier to switch to another mobile platform. Quite obviously increased switching costs for users are important for iOS to maintain leadership in platform wars. Therefore, rapid advancement of web apps user experience to the level of native apps in some categories would be detrimental to Apple's competitive positions. Making web lose -> stronger competitive advantage.
  - Tloewald 11y ago
    Making web lose -> make users unhappy in short (and probably long) term, damage Apple's reputation in long term It's totally awesome how Google created its Play store so that it seamlessly works on competing platforms -- after all it's a largely open-source stack that would easily run on (say) iPhones. No wait, they use it as a bludgeon to keep third parties in line (and create vendor lock-in).
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      > Making web lose -> make users unhappy in short term Sure, it decreases user satisfaction for a SUBSET of users, who care about web apps. This subset seems to be strategically negligible for Apple. This is a trade-off which is absolutely rational from the shareholders/management perspective. >It's totally awesome how Google created its Play store so that it seamlessly works on competing platforms Your fanboyism shows. This thread is not about Google, also a corporation which actions are driven by interests of management and shareholders.
      - Tloewald 11y ago
        Ah yes, pointing out that your anti-Apple arguments are just as easily applied to Chrome/Google, Firefox/Mozilla, or IE/Microsoft makes me a fanboy. It's like Betteridge's Law for discussions involving Apple.
    - wstrange 11y ago
      Correct me if I am wrong, but how could Google ever create a play store for Apple iOS devices? Doesn't Apple forbid that?
      - Tloewald 11y ago
        Non android badge android devices are my point.
- Touche 11y ago
  Can you explain how fixing IndexedDB bugs hurts battery life? Can you explain how WebRTC hurts battery life?
  - etchalon 11y ago
    It doesn't hurt battery life. It just takes engineering hours away from working on battery life.
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      But that argument can justify any deficiency in Safari, so it's unconvincing. Eventually you're just saying, "Apple don't care about all these new web things." Which is the point of TFA.
      - Tloewald 11y ago
        How so? Let's suppose Safari has some horrible bug in it that exposes users to malware or whatever. (And it has had from time to time and Apple has been rightly pilloried for some of these cases.) Tell me how saying that Apple would rather improve user experience than add developer-friendly features justifies this.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        Different people will draw the line at different places. To you, the hypothetical malware vuln should be fixed before e.g. improving battery life by 5%. To some other user who is on a long plane journey without a power adapter and doesn't e.g. click on .flv links on specialty forums, maybe it shouldn't. But to a greedy fruit executive who wants the web to be insecure? There's no question! b^) This thread explores the possibility that, for strategic reasons, new web stuff is not implemented on Safari. That proposition is scarcely undermined by hypothesizing a typical user who doesn't care about new web stuff as much as she cares about battery life. She's hypothetical, why should she care about anything as much as she cares about battery life?
kalleboo 11y ago
If Apple really wanted to make Web Apps feel like a second class citizen, they wouldn't be adding Force Touch, custom AirPlay control support and Picture In Picture support to the upcoming version of Safari. Those are deep, native app level features that aren't even Web standards yet. I assume Apple is underinvesting in safari simply because they have bigger fish to fry, and they are notoriously understaffed with competent engineers (or have bad project management).
- criswell 11y ago
  They're adding APIs that only benefit people using their hardware. Unless they open source AirPlay and whatever else they need to do for Force Touch I'm failing to see why I should be excited by that.

coldtea 11y ago

Which has been stated again and again, but was never an issue with Apple. First because what they make from the App Store is spare change for them. Second because they did have the best browser for a while, and did very much to advance the state of the art (from WebSQL, to Canvas, CSS 3D and other stuff, all originating there, along with the original fast-JITed JS engine who started the JS-race to what we have know). And they did that for years after they had an App platform available too.

supster 11y ago
The App Store may not be a money maker, but it definitely is a competitive advantage when selling iPhones over the competition esp. Android phones.
fpgeek 11y ago
It's not about the money from the app store, it's about the lock-in from apps, which is far more valuable.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Not much lock-in. Most apps are either cross platform or for casual use, and I could buy an Android phone and be productive tomorrow, transferring all my images, documents, contacts and such in a couple of hours. People don't feel locked with their app purchases. Case in point, the large volumes of people going from Android to iOS and vice versa.
netfire 11y ago
Curious where you are basing your revenue numbers from. Per Apple's reported statistics for 2014[1], developers pulled in $10 billion dollars in revenue from the app store. That means that Apple's revenue from the app store should also be in the low billions (based on the 70/30 cut they take from app store sales and purchases). All without manufacturing logistics and hardware production costs. Obviously the computing infrastructure, payment processing and software engineering of the app store has a cost, but I'd imagine much less than those involved with building, distributing and selling a computer or mobile device. It may not generate as much as hardware sales do, but billions of dollars hardly seems like spare change. [1] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/01/08App-Store-Rings-in-2015-with-New-Records.html?sr=hotnews.rss http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/01/08App-Store-Rings-in...

2muchcoffeeman 11y ago

I'm not sure you can pin this all on Apple. Back when the first iPhone was released Jobs was all "We have a great way for you to develop apps! ... HTML5!" All the developers were disappointed and wanted a native API. So here we are.

jfim 11y ago

It's not as if it's the first time Apple does it either. They positioned OS X as the best platform to run Java, yet ditched it a couple of years later. Even back then, people were complaining about it [0]. Developing on Mac has always been a chore (at least back in the XCode 1.1 and 2.0 days), with poorly documented APIs and APIs that are just flat out broken (OpenGL comes to mind, and is still broken to this day apparently). Our running joke back then was that "Macs are very user friendly, except developers don't count as users." Still true to this day apparently. [0] http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=13058 http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=13058