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Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards i

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
my-bullshit-job 11y ago
I didn't downvote you, but this should really be submitted as an AskHN.
- personjerry 11y ago
  You're right, I will attempt not to hijack threads in the future.
blhack 11y ago
I feel like most of the hatred of Uber is manufactured, and that the people who whip themselves into a frenzy over it are allowing themselves to be manipulated.
- chx 11y ago
  OK I will take your challenge. You can read a detailed description of why I hate Uber above (tl;dr: shady practices pushing towards indentured servitude and weaking the very rule of law). What's manufactured of it and how am I being manipulated?
joshjkim 11y ago
This is from an old post but I think you'll find interesting: Note on Uber: I think Uber is a great business and has a significantly net-positive impact on society, and I reserve judgment w/r/t whether TK and the other Uber execs are good or bad people - I can't conclude they are good because they run a good business, and I can't conclude they are bad because they say stupid things in public. Note on Nietzche: In Thus Spake Zarathrusa, the "uberman" concept is (maybe) considered a positive that humanity should work towards in the absence of belief in God, and I think it can still be understood as such. The fact that history has attributed some very negative actions to the belief in this concept (Hitler, Leopold & Loeb's murder, etc.) is, in my opinion, not definitive but at the same time not entirely insignificant, but I'm also a Christian that believes in capital-M Morality so I'm biased against nihilism in general. here's a thought I had a few months ago: how have there not been more thought pieces relating Uber-the-business's recent/relentless PR-debacles to Nietzsche's Ubermensch concept? I guess I'll give it a go. Uber/Travis and his execs seem to demonstrate the belief that they are "overmen" in that they seem to believe that they transcend the rules of society and are destined to shape society and its values rather than the other way around (probably something not too uncommonly shared with HN readers…). A few fun/funny/serious examples (in no particular order): 1. They outrightly express resistance to laws-as-is, and regularly threaten to ignore and sometimes do break those regs as necessary to conduct their business / benefit themselves and their consumers. 2. They hire lobbyists and other high-level political actors to change the laws they don't like and/or influence lawmakers - not atypical for a large company, but they did this earlier than most companies at their stage, with much more specific agendas in place and with a lot more PR surrounding it (the last may or may not have been their doing, hard to say). They have a belief (probably well-founded) that they can use the political process to make the law bend to their will. “Creating New Values” as any good uberman should. 3. They call their central system “Godmode” which implies that they, the viewers, are like God (a bit of a stretch I know…couldn’t resist) 4. They are proud that using the data in Godmode they can track, predict and identify specifics of other human being’s behavior. 5. The whole “we’ll pay our own researchers to smear journalists” thing - another good example of Creating New Values and constructing narratives. 6. The general feeling that Uber (perhaps correctly) operates against “states” and “sovereigns” and “systems” more than corporate competitors (who even writes about Lyft anymore these days…) The funny thing is that after thinking this through, all (good?) CEOs of major corporations basically operate like this (and so do many other tech-leaders - it is often associated with libertarian-leaning individuals like P. Thiel, etc.) - the difference is that Uber (1) has a name that calls it out and (2) seems to be especially prone to doing this in public and (3) sometimes appears to relishes their “overlord-iness” a little too much. You can call it being crass or being honest. In any case, they seem to be getting hip to the system and playing nice which of course can be viewed as just another level of the game, etc. - still, glad to see them do it because I overall think that playing nice is best (especially when you can afford to do it) and with a $50b val. and a couple billion raised, I think they can spare some good behavior, at least for now =)
- personjerry 11y ago
  If you're right, it sounds like Uber is merely more public with their politics, and hence might actually serve to bring this "hidden" moral issues to light?
  - joshjkim 11y ago
    Yes, I think it's good that people are becoming more aware - Uber interestingly had politics block their business much earlier than most, but looking at FB, Google w/r/t data + anti-trust, the decade of tech lobbying is well, well underway. When Apple is almost 2X Exxon-Mobil, it was only a matter of time before tech > oil =)
InclinedPlane 11y ago
There are people who hate Uber for a variety of reasons. The way Uber treats its employees? Pretty evil. The way Uber competes against existing taxi services? Not evil at all in my opinion.
- disillusioned 11y ago
  "Contractors," not employees. Except for that one in California. And the 4,600 or so connected to the mothership.
  - InclinedPlane 11y ago
    Do you use strictly typed languages or dynamic languages? I'm using duck typing here.
- threeseed 11y ago
  It's pretty damn evil against taxi services. If you were a taxi driver you wouldn't be happy that you are abiding by the law and a US company comes waltzing in, flouts your countries's laws actively trying to ruin your lifelihood.
dylanjermiah 11y ago
Uber is a net positive I believe. Irrespective of what others think of their practices the product is substantially superior to any alternatives I have pwrrsonally used.
- personjerry 11y ago
  Net positive in terms of utility perhaps, but I'm of the opinion that you can't weigh ethics on that scale
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - dylanjermiah 11y ago
    What have they done that's unethical?
    - zouhair 11y ago
      It's a guy that out of the blue decided to take people places in his car and get paid for it. But a lot of people are ok with it because it's an app/
      - dylanjermiah 11y ago
        That's factually incorrect, and very get from the truth. If you'd like to converse please make an argument which relies on the truth.
- beedogs 11y ago
  "It's better than a taxicab so that excuses literally all of the bogus, often illegal shit Uber is doing." Riiiiiiight.
  - dylanjermiah 11y ago
    I don't think they're doing any 'bogus' things nor do I think the illegality matters. The laws were used to prop up the taxi cartel, I'm glad they are being broken.
chx 11y ago
There's the issue where they are pushing the drivers into indentured servitude http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785 http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-... And just because the cab regulations overshot in many places it does not mean no regulations is the answer. Also, while civil disobedience is laudable the same can't be said from a company. Problem is, what if next time a company finds another set of regulations / laws it doesn't like? This sort of behavior should be killed with fire because it weakens the very rule of law. I know this is not a popular opinion but the French arresting the leaders of Uber in France are going the right direction and more of the same is (badly) needed.
- Kalium 11y ago
  After the story of Night School, people are a lot less inclined to think that making nice with the law will work out well. What we've learned is that attempting to work within the law will get you squished by those you are disrupting before you become big enough to be a threat - or defend yourself effectively. With that in mind, what do you think the right approach is?
wpietri 11y ago
Having worked for financial traders I won't call them the very worst company in the world. But if my choices were working for them or quitting the industry, I wouldn't blink. For me it's more the accumulation of awfulness. They started out as a scheme to time-share limos among young entitled dudebros. They entered the market with the black cars, exploiting a status-good dynamic. They've shifted all of the capital cost and risk of the taxi business to drivers, surely screwing many of them in the process. Their "we're too important to comply with mere laws" routine strikes me as arrogant horseshit. They've had assorted scandals, including inviting a bunch of journalists to an off-the-record dinner and then "joking" about plans to spend lots of money to destroy the career of a prominent journalist they didn't like. I've lost count of how many places have arrested or issued arrest warrants for their people. Throughout all of this, they sing a song of "entrepreneurship" and "worker independence" while providing low-quality, low-stability jobs and making long-term plans to put every one of their drivers out of work. They couldn't give a shit about their workers, and are even willing to threaten their jobs (which aren't jobs, of course, but independent contractor positions) if they are politically active. On top of all of that, I believe they're a great example of the shift back to a new gilded age, where the main function of the poor is to directly serve the wealthy. But instead of a Victorian model where employees are part of the household, in the Uber model we'll get paid only during the instants we are directly useful to somebody with money. That's just some highlights off the top of my head; the list goes on. They may not be the very worst, but they have an awful lot of people rooting for their fall. I expect they won't go totally bust. But I am looking forward to a Groupon-style outcome once their investor-fueled growth becomes untenable.
- omarchowdhury 11y ago
  'In the Uber model we'll get paid only during the instants we are directly useful to somebody with money.' I'm sorry, but that sounds more like the efficiency that capitalism optimizes towards.
  - beedogs 11y ago
    ...which doesn't make it morally right.
Tycho 11y ago
Uber has come along and made every single thing about cab journeys better. People complaining about it look like idiots. The only evil here is whatever it was that made it take so long for this change to come about.
- threeseed 11y ago
  People that don't believe that a US company whose business model is based solely on breaking the law in other countries and compromising passenger safety aren't idiots. And let's be clear in many countries taxi drivers are far more rigorously screened and of course have security cameras. Both of which Uber has been a bit lax at.
  - Tycho 11y ago
    I disagree. They can't see the wood for the trees. Über is inherently safe. The drivers are licenced. The cars are modern. And most importantly, the drivers have skin in the game. If you spend any time on the road at all it's frankly irrational to worry about driver safety. Complaining about Uber, a company that operates entirely through mutual consent, being 'evil' is ridiculous, against the backdrop of a deeply corrupt industry.

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

my-bullshit-job 11y ago

I didn't downvote you, but this should really be submitted as an AskHN.

personjerry 11y ago
You're right, I will attempt not to hijack threads in the future.

blhack 11y ago

I feel like most of the hatred of Uber is manufactured, and that the people who whip themselves into a frenzy over it are allowing themselves to be manipulated.

chx 11y ago
OK I will take your challenge. You can read a detailed description of why I hate Uber above (tl;dr: shady practices pushing towards indentured servitude and weaking the very rule of law). What's manufactured of it and how am I being manipulated?

joshjkim 11y ago

This is from an old post but I think you'll find interesting: Note on Uber: I think Uber is a great business and has a significantly net-positive impact on society, and I reserve judgment w/r/t whether TK and the other Uber execs are good or bad people - I can't conclude they are good because they run a good business, and I can't conclude they are bad because they say stupid things in public. Note on Nietzche: In Thus Spake Zarathrusa, the "uberman" concept is (maybe) considered a positive that humanity should work towards in the absence of belief in God, and I think it can still be understood as such. The fact that history has attributed some very negative actions to the belief in this concept (Hitler, Leopold & Loeb's murder, etc.) is, in my opinion, not definitive but at the same time not entirely insignificant, but I'm also a Christian that believes in capital-M Morality so I'm biased against nihilism in general. here's a thought I had a few months ago: how have there not been more thought pieces relating Uber-the-business's recent/relentless PR-debacles to Nietzsche's Ubermensch concept? I guess I'll give it a go. Uber/Travis and his execs seem to demonstrate the belief that they are "overmen" in that they seem to believe that they transcend the rules of society and are destined to shape society and its values rather than the other way around (probably something not too uncommonly shared with HN readers…). A few fun/funny/serious examples (in no particular order): 1. They outrightly express resistance to laws-as-is, and regularly threaten to ignore and sometimes do break those regs as necessary to conduct their business / benefit themselves and their consumers. 2. They hire lobbyists and other high-level political actors to change the laws they don't like and/or influence lawmakers - not atypical for a large company, but they did this earlier than most companies at their stage, with much more specific agendas in place and with a lot more PR surrounding it (the last may or may not have been their doing, hard to say). They have a belief (probably well-founded) that they can use the political process to make the law bend to their will. “Creating New Values” as any good uberman should. 3. They call their central system “Godmode” which implies that they, the viewers, are like God (a bit of a stretch I know…couldn’t resist) 4. They are proud that using the data in Godmode they can track, predict and identify specifics of other human being’s behavior. 5. The whole “we’ll pay our own researchers to smear journalists” thing - another good example of Creating New Values and constructing narratives. 6. The general feeling that Uber (perhaps correctly) operates against “states” and “sovereigns” and “systems” more than corporate competitors (who even writes about Lyft anymore these days…) The funny thing is that after thinking this through, all (good?) CEOs of major corporations basically operate like this (and so do many other tech-leaders - it is often associated with libertarian-leaning individuals like P. Thiel, etc.) - the difference is that Uber (1) has a name that calls it out and (2) seems to be especially prone to doing this in public and (3) sometimes appears to relishes their “overlord-iness” a little too much. You can call it being crass or being honest. In any case, they seem to be getting hip to the system and playing nice which of course can be viewed as just another level of the game, etc. - still, glad to see them do it because I overall think that playing nice is best (especially when you can afford to do it) and with a $50b val. and a couple billion raised, I think they can spare some good behavior, at least for now =)

personjerry 11y ago
If you're right, it sounds like Uber is merely more public with their politics, and hence might actually serve to bring this "hidden" moral issues to light?
- joshjkim 11y ago
  Yes, I think it's good that people are becoming more aware - Uber interestingly had politics block their business much earlier than most, but looking at FB, Google w/r/t data + anti-trust, the decade of tech lobbying is well, well underway. When Apple is almost 2X Exxon-Mobil, it was only a matter of time before tech > oil =)

InclinedPlane 11y ago

There are people who hate Uber for a variety of reasons. The way Uber treats its employees? Pretty evil. The way Uber competes against existing taxi services? Not evil at all in my opinion.

disillusioned 11y ago
"Contractors," not employees. Except for that one in California. And the 4,600 or so connected to the mothership.
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  Do you use strictly typed languages or dynamic languages? I'm using duck typing here.
threeseed 11y ago
It's pretty damn evil against taxi services. If you were a taxi driver you wouldn't be happy that you are abiding by the law and a US company comes waltzing in, flouts your countries's laws actively trying to ruin your lifelihood.

dylanjermiah 11y ago

Uber is a net positive I believe. Irrespective of what others think of their practices the product is substantially superior to any alternatives I have pwrrsonally used.

personjerry 11y ago
Net positive in terms of utility perhaps, but I'm of the opinion that you can't weigh ethics on that scale
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dylanjermiah 11y ago
  What have they done that's unethical?
  - zouhair 11y ago
    It's a guy that out of the blue decided to take people places in his car and get paid for it. But a lot of people are ok with it because it's an app/
    - dylanjermiah 11y ago
      That's factually incorrect, and very get from the truth. If you'd like to converse please make an argument which relies on the truth.
beedogs 11y ago
"It's better than a taxicab so that excuses literally all of the bogus, often illegal shit Uber is doing." Riiiiiiight.
- dylanjermiah 11y ago
  I don't think they're doing any 'bogus' things nor do I think the illegality matters. The laws were used to prop up the taxi cartel, I'm glad they are being broken.

chx 11y ago

There's the issue where they are pushing the drivers into indentured servitude http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785 http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-... And just because the cab regulations overshot in many places it does not mean no regulations is the answer. Also, while civil disobedience is laudable the same can't be said from a company. Problem is, what if next time a company finds another set of regulations / laws it doesn't like? This sort of behavior should be killed with fire because it weakens the very rule of law. I know this is not a popular opinion but the French arresting the leaders of Uber in France are going the right direction and more of the same is (badly) needed.

Kalium 11y ago
After the story of Night School, people are a lot less inclined to think that making nice with the law will work out well. What we've learned is that attempting to work within the law will get you squished by those you are disrupting before you become big enough to be a threat - or defend yourself effectively. With that in mind, what do you think the right approach is?

wpietri 11y ago

Having worked for financial traders I won't call them the very worst company in the world. But if my choices were working for them or quitting the industry, I wouldn't blink. For me it's more the accumulation of awfulness. They started out as a scheme to time-share limos among young entitled dudebros. They entered the market with the black cars, exploiting a status-good dynamic. They've shifted all of the capital cost and risk of the taxi business to drivers, surely screwing many of them in the process. Their "we're too important to comply with mere laws" routine strikes me as arrogant horseshit. They've had assorted scandals, including inviting a bunch of journalists to an off-the-record dinner and then "joking" about plans to spend lots of money to destroy the career of a prominent journalist they didn't like. I've lost count of how many places have arrested or issued arrest warrants for their people. Throughout all of this, they sing a song of "entrepreneurship" and "worker independence" while providing low-quality, low-stability jobs and making long-term plans to put every one of their drivers out of work. They couldn't give a shit about their workers, and are even willing to threaten their jobs (which aren't jobs, of course, but independent contractor positions) if they are politically active. On top of all of that, I believe they're a great example of the shift back to a new gilded age, where the main function of the poor is to directly serve the wealthy. But instead of a Victorian model where employees are part of the household, in the Uber model we'll get paid only during the instants we are directly useful to somebody with money. That's just some highlights off the top of my head; the list goes on. They may not be the very worst, but they have an awful lot of people rooting for their fall. I expect they won't go totally bust. But I am looking forward to a Groupon-style outcome once their investor-fueled growth becomes untenable.

omarchowdhury 11y ago
'In the Uber model we'll get paid only during the instants we are directly useful to somebody with money.' I'm sorry, but that sounds more like the efficiency that capitalism optimizes towards.
- beedogs 11y ago
  ...which doesn't make it morally right.

Tycho 11y ago

Uber has come along and made every single thing about cab journeys better. People complaining about it look like idiots. The only evil here is whatever it was that made it take so long for this change to come about.

threeseed 11y ago
People that don't believe that a US company whose business model is based solely on breaking the law in other countries and compromising passenger safety aren't idiots. And let's be clear in many countries taxi drivers are far more rigorously screened and of course have security cameras. Both of which Uber has been a bit lax at.
- Tycho 11y ago
  I disagree. They can't see the wood for the trees. Über is inherently safe. The drivers are licenced. The cars are modern. And most importantly, the drivers have skin in the game. If you spend any time on the road at all it's frankly irrational to worry about driver safety. Complaining about Uber, a company that operates entirely through mutual consent, being 'evil' is ridiculous, against the backdrop of a deeply corrupt industry.