4 ms·

Need to tax unoccupancy. If an entity is preventing people from living in the city, they should be paying more than those contributing to the well being of the

Need to tax unoccupancy. If an entity is preventing people from living in the city, they should be paying more than those contributing to the well being of the city.

someone7x 11y ago
That's a great idea. I'd like to see that where I live.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Sounds like a classic Georgist tax.
abstractbeliefs 11y ago
We tried to tax underoccupancy in state provided accommodation, ie, if you lived in state housing, with empty rooms, you'd have a reduced benefits payout. It was an absolute nightmare response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty
- mahyarm 11y ago
  There were several political mistakes in that one. The poor outnumber the wealthy, so they can vote more. Anything that targets them can be a hard sell, especially if a lot of them are elderly. I would make it a 'complete, long term non-occupancy' tax, that is solvable by renting the places out or having someone live in them. People can still have whatever space they want, but don't do the utter waste of buying a house as a another form of bank account.
- Mandatum 11y ago
  There was large campaigns to abolish this tax, I believe this was largely funded by lobbying. Edge cases, like the ones below which was largely used to stir criticism from public could easily be accounted for (ie implement allowance of 6 months after the death for under-occupancy tax to kick in and medical requirements). Yes these allowances may be abused/dodged (I can see a lot of "home offices" popping up and people claiming tax on their "office rooms"), however there will be a large amount of revenue generated from implementing an under-occupancy tax. But as we all know getting bureaucracies to implement something like this will cost hundreds of millions, and will it be beneficial in the short term? Probably not. But we should start looking at long-term solutions. > Michael Rosen writing in The Guardian has criticised how, under government proposals, parents living in social housing could become liable for what he calls the bedroom tax after only three months following the death of a child – something that inadvertently causes the creation of a "spare" room.[26] In March 2015 the Daily Mirror, a British tabloid newspaper, reported that a woman had become liable for the bedroom tax following her son's death from a brain haemorrhage following an assault. > The changes in housing benefit have been criticised for having a disproportionate effect on disabled families. Two-thirds of individuals affected by the under-occupancy penalty are registered as disabled. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty
  - toupeetape 11y ago
    > But as we all know getting bureaucracies to implement something like this will cost hundreds of millions, and will it be beneficial in the short term? Probably not. But we should start looking at long-term solutions. Penalizing people for having extra rooms while it is impossible for them to downsize because there is insufficient supply of smaller properties is not a long term solution. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind-the-bedroom-tax-families-trapped-with-nowhere-to-move-face-penalty-for-having-spare-room-8745597.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind...
    - Mandatum 11y ago
      In which case it would make sense to rent the spare room out.
- jon-wood 11y ago
  That's because once again the government were targeting those least able to afford it, while leaving the rich to do whatever they want.
- KaiserPro 11y ago
  But thats trying to cure the symptom. The main problem is the lack of correct sized social housing. The bedroom tax forced people to downsize. In southwark the most pressure of housing is for one and two bedroom properties. Most people were downsizing from 3+ into 2 or 1 bedroom places. If the price is too high, its not because of tax (3-5%) its because there isn't enough to go round. The lack of state rental housing means that there is increased pressure on private rental. There is no new supply of rental housing, which means that the existing stock becomes more valuable. This means that rental prices rise inline with the value of the housing stock. This is turn means that the direct cost to the government rises as well. Its literally cheaper to build council houses. However this will never happen because: 1) it involves borrowing money for the "poor" 2) it involves planning for something longer than two years 3) it will lower house prices for the very voters that got the tories into government. Nothing will change untill a crisis happens. And by crisis I mean the voting classes getting impacted.
mschuster91 11y ago
Why taxes? Rich idiots buying just for resale would not be impeded in any way. An effective way might be forced auctioning off if the asset was left unoccupied for more than 9 months (to allow "holiday flats"). In case the asset sells for more than the price it was acquired, the previous owner gets only this price and any surplus ends up as taxes; in case the asset has less worth, the owner only gets the auction proceeds.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >Why taxes? Rich idiots buying just for resale would not be impeded in any way. Resale value would plummet if properties were taxed more, especially if extra onerous taxes were put on foreign investors. This would discourage rich dirty-money investors using central London property as an offshore savings account. >to allow "holiday flats" I really don't see why Russians who spend two weeks in London a year need to occupy a huge apartment in South Ken. That space could be used for Londoners who are being pushed into zone 5.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    > Resale value would plummet if properties were taxed more, especially if extra onerous taxes were put on foreign investors. This would discourage rich dirty-money investors using central London property as an offshore savings account. If you're a Russian with enough cash to spare to buy a central London property just as an investment asset, the taxes have to be in triple-digit million ranges to become noteworthy. > I really don't see why Russians who spend two weeks in London a year need to occupy a huge apartment in South Ken. That space could be used for Londoners who are being pushed into zone 5. Expensive, multi-million-dollar apartments are not affordable by working-class people.
    - jon-wood 11y ago
      Expensive multi million apartments wouldn't get built if people weren't incentivised to buy them, and instead property developers would be building houses normal people can afford to live in.
    - 11y ago
escanda 11y ago
Why not cap rents and property valuation? It seems Berlin has done the former [1]. But it's not the first city to do so, Vienna is known to have a large public rent market to counter balance private development greed. In Spain, Andalucia (an area in the south of Spain), advocated during the political campaign to rent out thousands of flats owned by private banks, which in turn were bailed out with public money. Also Barcelona is going to implement measures to prevent the city to become an empty touristic resort with no much life beyond tourist apartments and hotels. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/rent-cap-legislation-in-force-berlin-germany http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/rent-cap-legisl...

Need to tax unoccupancy. If an entity is preventing people from living in the city, they should be paying more than those contributing to the well being of the city.

someone7x 11y ago

That's a great idea. I'd like to see that where I live.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Sounds like a classic Georgist tax.

abstractbeliefs 11y ago

We tried to tax underoccupancy in state provided accommodation, ie, if you lived in state housing, with empty rooms, you'd have a reduced benefits payout. It was an absolute nightmare response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty

mahyarm 11y ago
There were several political mistakes in that one. The poor outnumber the wealthy, so they can vote more. Anything that targets them can be a hard sell, especially if a lot of them are elderly. I would make it a 'complete, long term non-occupancy' tax, that is solvable by renting the places out or having someone live in them. People can still have whatever space they want, but don't do the utter waste of buying a house as a another form of bank account.
Mandatum 11y ago
There was large campaigns to abolish this tax, I believe this was largely funded by lobbying. Edge cases, like the ones below which was largely used to stir criticism from public could easily be accounted for (ie implement allowance of 6 months after the death for under-occupancy tax to kick in and medical requirements). Yes these allowances may be abused/dodged (I can see a lot of "home offices" popping up and people claiming tax on their "office rooms"), however there will be a large amount of revenue generated from implementing an under-occupancy tax. But as we all know getting bureaucracies to implement something like this will cost hundreds of millions, and will it be beneficial in the short term? Probably not. But we should start looking at long-term solutions. > Michael Rosen writing in The Guardian has criticised how, under government proposals, parents living in social housing could become liable for what he calls the bedroom tax after only three months following the death of a child – something that inadvertently causes the creation of a "spare" room.[26] In March 2015 the Daily Mirror, a British tabloid newspaper, reported that a woman had become liable for the bedroom tax following her son's death from a brain haemorrhage following an assault. > The changes in housing benefit have been criticised for having a disproportionate effect on disabled families. Two-thirds of individuals affected by the under-occupancy penalty are registered as disabled. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupancy_penalty
- toupeetape 11y ago
  > But as we all know getting bureaucracies to implement something like this will cost hundreds of millions, and will it be beneficial in the short term? Probably not. But we should start looking at long-term solutions. Penalizing people for having extra rooms while it is impossible for them to downsize because there is insufficient supply of smaller properties is not a long term solution. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind-the-bedroom-tax-families-trapped-with-nowhere-to-move-face-penalty-for-having-spare-room-8745597.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind...
  - Mandatum 11y ago
    In which case it would make sense to rent the spare room out.
jon-wood 11y ago
That's because once again the government were targeting those least able to afford it, while leaving the rich to do whatever they want.
KaiserPro 11y ago
But thats trying to cure the symptom. The main problem is the lack of correct sized social housing. The bedroom tax forced people to downsize. In southwark the most pressure of housing is for one and two bedroom properties. Most people were downsizing from 3+ into 2 or 1 bedroom places. If the price is too high, its not because of tax (3-5%) its because there isn't enough to go round. The lack of state rental housing means that there is increased pressure on private rental. There is no new supply of rental housing, which means that the existing stock becomes more valuable. This means that rental prices rise inline with the value of the housing stock. This is turn means that the direct cost to the government rises as well. Its literally cheaper to build council houses. However this will never happen because: 1) it involves borrowing money for the "poor" 2) it involves planning for something longer than two years 3) it will lower house prices for the very voters that got the tories into government. Nothing will change untill a crisis happens. And by crisis I mean the voting classes getting impacted.

mschuster91 11y ago

Why taxes? Rich idiots buying just for resale would not be impeded in any way. An effective way might be forced auctioning off if the asset was left unoccupied for more than 9 months (to allow "holiday flats"). In case the asset sells for more than the price it was acquired, the previous owner gets only this price and any surplus ends up as taxes; in case the asset has less worth, the owner only gets the auction proceeds.

crdoconnor 11y ago
>Why taxes? Rich idiots buying just for resale would not be impeded in any way. Resale value would plummet if properties were taxed more, especially if extra onerous taxes were put on foreign investors. This would discourage rich dirty-money investors using central London property as an offshore savings account. >to allow "holiday flats" I really don't see why Russians who spend two weeks in London a year need to occupy a huge apartment in South Ken. That space could be used for Londoners who are being pushed into zone 5.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > Resale value would plummet if properties were taxed more, especially if extra onerous taxes were put on foreign investors. This would discourage rich dirty-money investors using central London property as an offshore savings account. If you're a Russian with enough cash to spare to buy a central London property just as an investment asset, the taxes have to be in triple-digit million ranges to become noteworthy. > I really don't see why Russians who spend two weeks in London a year need to occupy a huge apartment in South Ken. That space could be used for Londoners who are being pushed into zone 5. Expensive, multi-million-dollar apartments are not affordable by working-class people.
  - jon-wood 11y ago
    Expensive multi million apartments wouldn't get built if people weren't incentivised to buy them, and instead property developers would be building houses normal people can afford to live in.
  - 11y ago

escanda 11y ago

Why not cap rents and property valuation? It seems Berlin has done the former [1]. But it's not the first city to do so, Vienna is known to have a large public rent market to counter balance private development greed. In Spain, Andalucia (an area in the south of Spain), advocated during the political campaign to rent out thousands of flats owned by private banks, which in turn were bailed out with public money. Also Barcelona is going to implement measures to prevent the city to become an empty touristic resort with no much life beyond tourist apartments and hotels. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/rent-cap-legislation-in-force-berlin-germany http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/rent-cap-legisl...