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The espionage is perhaps most bothering of all. In some ways, most of us can rationalize spying for the purposes of security (albeit a dangerous and perhaps sh
by mrschwabe 11y ago
The espionage is perhaps most bothering of all. In some ways, most of us can rationalize spying for the purposes of security (albeit a dangerous and perhaps short-sighted rationalization) but when it's done with the intention of economic advantage it clearly undermines our entire financial system and the best features of capitalism: which is to reward those who innovate; delivering the market with higher quality products at lower pricing over time.
Because now you have a 'special access' class of the economy that can subvert this innovation/value mechanism with stolen data. Add corrupt politicians, easily exploited loopholes, biased media channels, and a docile public - and it's easy to see how this special access class can twist, distort (and ultimately destroy) the system.
One can only imagine what humanity could achieve without these parasites infecting our lives and businesses.
- mc32 11y agoAll capable states spy on each other. Enemy states spy on govt secrets and friendly states focus on industrial espionage. France, Israel and China are some of the most vigorous at industrial espionage. Like it or not that's how the world operates and, unfortunately, we can't simply wish that away.
- sounds 11y agoI don't think he wished anything away, I think his point is that it reduces the value for all of us. Maybe take it as an appeal to logic: if nations are to grapple with the issues raised by the NSA and her sister orgs in the five eye countries, the best approach to raising the issue and proposing solutions (in my opinion) is to appeal to the logic of each individual and demonstrate how they are best served by dismantling these espionage operations.
- mc32 11y agoI think it's wishful thinking. I knew of a guy who wanted to open a coffee shop. He got to know another existing coffee shop owner and picked his brain for the dos and don'ts. He said, I'll be opening a shop (in a diff city) and I see yours is doing well... So what does he do? Opened a shop one block down and drove the fist guy out of business. Business is ruthless.
- J0-onas 11y agoTo argue that something clearly wrong is ok because everyone else is doing it is just plain stupid. In that fashion, ISIS could argue that their torture is ok and necessary because the USA is also doing it to obtain information.
- mc32 11y agoThey probably do make that argument.
- knodi123 11y agoI can't speak for ISIS, but al queda absolutely (and frequently) uses that argument when they blow up a mosque full of innocents.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- tamersalama 11y agowrong + wrong != right
- gress 11y agoNobody is arguing that it's ok. Only that it is necessary. Edit: I'm referring to spying, not torture.
- Retra 11y agoIt's not necessary, it's just an easy way to get a short-term advantage. It fundamentally degrades our ability to interact peacefully on an international scale, and it is one of the reasons our politicians form a privileged class. The only justification for it is "they did it first," which is both childish and irresponsible. Just because everyone else does it, doesn't mean it is correct, necessary, or justified.
- 11y ago
- forloop 11y agoFor a start, encryption could be used more widely. Which is the polar opposite of what some governments want[0]. It's almost as if governments are playing the terrorist card to push through laws which benefit them—the political class. Oh, but that's OK: everyone does it! --- [0] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/cameron-ban-encryption-digital-britain-online-shopping-banking-messaging-terror http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/cameron...
- Zigurd 11y agoYou get what you pay for. Up to now we have paid tens of billions to get surveillance, and tens of millions to preserve confidentiality. It could be the other way around.
- digler999 11y ago> unfortunately, we can't simply wish that away. I know. If we ever hoped to get to that point, I think we'd need some esoteric unicorn shit like "checks and balances" built into our government.
- wpietri 11y agoIf only we had some government agency that helped large companies be less vulnerable to industrial espionage, making sure that secrets stayed secret. Encouraging strong encryption, discovering and preventing software bugs, generally promoting computer security. Hmmm... A nation-wide security-focused agency. Maybe we could call it the National Security Agency?
- higherpurpose 11y agoIt should probably be renamed to National Spy Agency at this point, because it does that much more than "security".
- TeMPOraL 11y agoI wonder if this even makes sense. Today multinational corporations are becoming sovereign trans-national governments. Why would the NSA want to help protect Corporation X or its US branch, if said corporation may be a potential threat to national security?
- rjaco31 11y agoI have yet to see any single example of 'sovereign trans-national' corporations, AFAIK big companies are definitely from their mother-country, no matter how many subsidiaries or branches they have.
- TeMPOraL 11y agoThere've been cases of big companies suing whole countries (Philip Morris vs Australia comes to mind). While they may be not technically sovereign entities yet, it seems to me that some megacorps have enough power to successfully compete with governments.
- rjaco31 11y agoSure, but they still remain US companies, and it's basically the main fact that allow them to do so (the US government negotiated treaties with countries so that US companies can sue their government).
- higherpurpose 11y agoSlavery is just the way societies work today. We can't just wish it away. - Most people a few hundred years ago, probably.
- mc32 11y agoThat's correct. It wasn't wished away. Slavery and other forms of cheap labor were part of the human condition for millennia. It took revolts, revolutions and changes in mores for things to advance to where they are today. Yes, some day, we may all enter a new world order where everything is placid. We're not there yet and thinking we can wish ourselves there in the near future, let's say, extremely optimistic, to the point if being wishful thinking. Perhaps most importantly is that servitude and slavery became economically untenable.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- dools 11y agoThe vast majority of interventions by both the US miliary and the CIA since WWII have been economically motivated, that is, designed to protect US company interests abroad. Those that weren't were politically motivated, that is, designed to protect US political interests domestically.
- solotronics 11y agoI am not attempting to justify these actions, but politics and economics are one and the same. The job of the NSA is to keep the USA in a position of power economically and politically to help stabilize the world. Since WW2 we have had an unprecedented period where major world powers have not gone to war directly and this is a direct result of the American hegemony.
- mladenkovacevic 11y agoIf all that you said was true I'd be totally OK with justifying NSA's actions, but a pretty huge chunk of your reasoning rests on this to help stabilize the world Unfortunately this part of your statement is the one that couldn't be more tragically and more demonstrably wrong.
- SoftwareMaven 11y agoI'm not sure that is objectively true. This is worth a watch to compare the first half of the 20th century with the time since: https://vimeo.com/128373915 https://vimeo.com/128373915
- DSingularity 11y agoI dont like reading into these kinds of analyses. What do you want to conclude? The battle against human suffering is done? We are certainly doing a good job when compared to WW2, but when we look at past 20 years -- we have been degrading. Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, ... millions were impacted by these conflicts. In Israel/Palestine an entire people are facing genocide by an illegal occupation. Look at South America -- what impact has the domestic and foreign policy of the US had on those countries? Yes, its great that millions aren't dying in world wars any more. But we still have a lot of work to do.
- Yhippa 11y agoPerhaps it will in fact be destroyed one day and maybe a better system will replace it.
- mercurialshark 11y agoWhy We Spy on Our Allies R. James Woolsey, a Washington lawyer and a former Director of Central Intelligence. http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm?utm_medium=referral&utm...
- mixmastamyk 11y agoI'm surprised he was so blunt, didn't expect there were any people like that in Washington. Or perhaps, since he had already retired.
- irishcoffee 11y agoI wish I could upvote this more, this is a fascinating read, and seems to at least give some more perspective to this conversation.
- yyyyes 11y agoPerspective on how radically warped the mindset of these CIA types are? It was the most obnoxious thing I've read in a while.
- saiya-jin 11y agoscumbags like that with too much power and too little oversight, feeling righteous... if any of you are reading this, please do a properly good deed for this world, and either quit or shoot yourself (that's a honest request, unfortunately)
- DanBC 11y ago> shoot yourself What a bizarrely horrid thing to say.
- lifeisstillgood 11y agotl;dr - The CIA spies on European allies because we bribe our way to win contracts, so the CIA gets the proof then blackmails (the Saudis) into handing over some of the contracts to others. Oh sorry quietly has a word. Look, use your spy satellites to publically shame bribery - that's fine by me. Claim the UK is bribing every government it can find - sure, Cameron and Blair were hardly discreet. But claim that after you have done this service to the world, you then "quietly have a word". Come on. If you are doing this for the greater good, make it public. I swear, if the CIA spent the next year uploading to their web site phone taps of public officials taking bribes, international corruption would end by 2017.
- god_bless_texas 11y agoHow do they get this information to the US company though?
- fnordfnordfnord 11y agoSAIC, Booz Allen Hamilton, Carlyle Group, Informal networks of personal contacts of retired/former employees, ie golf, is what I would guess.
- EthanHeilman 11y agoThis is one of the great dangers of state sponsored industrial espionage and why governments should not engage it in outside of extreme circumstances. >A second economic espionage order called “France: Economic Developments” shows that information was then shared with other U.S. agencies and secretaries, including the Secretary of Energy, the Secretary of Commerce, the Federal Reserve and the Secretary of Treasury. Eventually, this data could have been used to help sign export deals. Nothing in this report directly shows that the US did or did not share this intelligence with US companies. I have not read the French articles yet. I wonder how the US handles sharing economic intelligence with allies that have a very public record of state sponsored industrial espionage.
- shard972 11y agoI remember someone making a big point yesterday about why it's actually really expensive to manufacture in china. His argument was that China's theft of copyright is the biggest cost when your idea's get stolen and reproduced up the road. Not sure what his argument is going to be now....
- ravepadinc 11y agoRight on!
- ekianjo 11y ago> clearly undermines our entire financial system and the best features of capitalism: which is to reward those who innovate Let's not pretend that US spying on foreign companies is something new at all. It's been widely spread by other means for decades if not more. I would even say it's an integral part of doing business for larger companies, and they call it "intelligence" and they get it by whatever means they can. The NSA is just one of their tools.