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make it a trial and capture their credit card up front. Charge it after 30 days. FWIW, I personally refuse to do business with companies that utilize this kind

make it a trial and capture their credit card up front. Charge it after 30 days. FWIW, I personally refuse to do business with companies that utilize this kind of flow - it feels like a scummy dark pattern, where they're banking on people to forget they've signed up and they can get at least one month's worth of charge out of it. That goes double when you can sign up online but it requires calling in (and talking to "retention" people) to cancel. "But we don't want to interrupt your service.." goes the salesman.. yeah right. If you're going the free trial route, fine, but it should require affirmative action after the trial to begin billing. You don't need my credit card until I've actually bought something from you.

jdmichal 11y ago
I agree. Ticking time bomb on the account is fine, and a series of triggered reminder emails should be sufficient to prevent the dead switch surprise. Asking for payment information before I even begin a free trial leads me to assume that you don't believe your product is good enough to withstand the trial period on its own merits, and you are hoping to catch me just forgetting about it. Makes me wonder what other questionable actions might be taken, especially regarding hard things like security. Does not make me feel safe at all.
curiously 11y ago
FWIW, I personally refuse to do business with companies that utilize this kind of flow Well, I think you know the river runs both ways, they probably want to filter out people who share that mentality, not judging your views on morality or whatever but it does not support your argument at all. If you are not willing to provide a card up front it means you don't have money to spend right there and then, and those companies probably are more interested in talking to those who have shown they are able to pay if required.
- jeffmould 11y ago
  I understand the want to filter out people mentality, but I completely disagree with thinking that just because a person does not want to provide a credit card upfront that they are not a valid customer or don't have the money to spend. I look at it this way. Let's say I come across Acme Corporation's website. They are selling what appears to be a really cool product. I figure I will give it a try and signup for the free trial and at the same time enter my credit card info. I give it whirl, but in the middle of testing it out I get sidetracked with a phone call or whatever and forget to finish testing. I wasn't impressed enough with the little testing I had completed to go back immediately and after a couple days I completely forget I even signed up. Now 29 days later my credit card gets whacked for a $20 monthly fee. I have two choices at this point. I can file a chargeback, which isn't fair to the company. Or I can eat the cost and cancel immediately, which isn't fair to me. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason to demand a credit card upfront for a trial. *Edited to fix a typo.
  - mokkol 11y ago
    I think almost all the companies have a X days money back guaranty
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Which as recent FDA actions can tell us, are often worth the paper they're printed on. Sign up now, give my credit card, and to cancel I have to call a phone number which may or may not work and talk to a person who's entire reason for employment is to make it difficult for me to cancel with no assurance that anything has actually been cancelled until the next billing cycle. When I take over the world, it will be a law on pain of summary execution that any recurring billing which can be signed up for online must be cancellable online :/
  - curiously 11y ago
    Well if you can pay for a trial even better, the credit card requirement is just another step below that,the next which is a free trial with no card. Whichever they offer is valid because businesses differ. To claim requiring a card for a trial is shady is just one small irrelevant aspect for the vendor. The card requirement is a great way to filter out the less serious ones, if we miss one exception like yourself, it's no biggie, there's always someone who need the solution and willing to pay for it. The only reason where I'd be reluctant to do a card trial is if it was difficult to cancel or they didn't offer a refund if I accidentally forget. Plenty of shady people using fake cards to sign up for trial as well.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  It means I want to try before I buy and those who use dark patterns probably cut in other areas like security. Online it is too easy to lie about your product and too hard to get refunds in case of false promises. If someone was selling you a phone at a flea market, would you give them your CC number before you knew the phone turned on?
  - curiously 11y ago
    Irrelevant. You are now on a totally different playing ground. It's an interesting comparison but not at all valid. flea market is cash only usually.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      Paying with a debit card isn't much different from using only cash. I know who to file a report against if the product isn't delivered, but the amount that I expect to recover compared to the effort makes it comparable to having paid in cash with no recovery.
mokkol 11y ago
I totally understand your pain but I don't agree. We got rid of the CC on our signup (www.nusii.com). We got many more users because of that (3 to 4 times more) but we've seen that the conversion rate (trial to paid) was WAY lower. 4% instead of 40%. We don't exactly know why this is, but I think it is because the CC makes you want to try the product much more. You end up with a happier user. Our biggest mistake was getting rid of the CC on the signup. I could write a very similar blog post. Free trial period with a 60 days money back guaranty works the best for us and our users.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  The way you've phrased this, there's no surprise that you're converting less users, seeing as how the "conversion" is no longer automatic. Are you judging a conversion as someone that's paid for at least one month off service?

jdmichal 11y ago

I agree. Ticking time bomb on the account is fine, and a series of triggered reminder emails should be sufficient to prevent the dead switch surprise. Asking for payment information before I even begin a free trial leads me to assume that you don't believe your product is good enough to withstand the trial period on its own merits, and you are hoping to catch me just forgetting about it. Makes me wonder what other questionable actions might be taken, especially regarding hard things like security. Does not make me feel safe at all.

curiously 11y ago

FWIW, I personally refuse to do business with companies that utilize this kind of flow Well, I think you know the river runs both ways, they probably want to filter out people who share that mentality, not judging your views on morality or whatever but it does not support your argument at all. If you are not willing to provide a card up front it means you don't have money to spend right there and then, and those companies probably are more interested in talking to those who have shown they are able to pay if required.

jeffmould 11y ago
I understand the want to filter out people mentality, but I completely disagree with thinking that just because a person does not want to provide a credit card upfront that they are not a valid customer or don't have the money to spend. I look at it this way. Let's say I come across Acme Corporation's website. They are selling what appears to be a really cool product. I figure I will give it a try and signup for the free trial and at the same time enter my credit card info. I give it whirl, but in the middle of testing it out I get sidetracked with a phone call or whatever and forget to finish testing. I wasn't impressed enough with the little testing I had completed to go back immediately and after a couple days I completely forget I even signed up. Now 29 days later my credit card gets whacked for a $20 monthly fee. I have two choices at this point. I can file a chargeback, which isn't fair to the company. Or I can eat the cost and cancel immediately, which isn't fair to me. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason to demand a credit card upfront for a trial. *Edited to fix a typo.
- mokkol 11y ago
  I think almost all the companies have a X days money back guaranty
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    Which as recent FDA actions can tell us, are often worth the paper they're printed on. Sign up now, give my credit card, and to cancel I have to call a phone number which may or may not work and talk to a person who's entire reason for employment is to make it difficult for me to cancel with no assurance that anything has actually been cancelled until the next billing cycle. When I take over the world, it will be a law on pain of summary execution that any recurring billing which can be signed up for online must be cancellable online :/
- curiously 11y ago
  Well if you can pay for a trial even better, the credit card requirement is just another step below that,the next which is a free trial with no card. Whichever they offer is valid because businesses differ. To claim requiring a card for a trial is shady is just one small irrelevant aspect for the vendor. The card requirement is a great way to filter out the less serious ones, if we miss one exception like yourself, it's no biggie, there's always someone who need the solution and willing to pay for it. The only reason where I'd be reluctant to do a card trial is if it was difficult to cancel or they didn't offer a refund if I accidentally forget. Plenty of shady people using fake cards to sign up for trial as well.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
It means I want to try before I buy and those who use dark patterns probably cut in other areas like security. Online it is too easy to lie about your product and too hard to get refunds in case of false promises. If someone was selling you a phone at a flea market, would you give them your CC number before you knew the phone turned on?
- curiously 11y ago
  Irrelevant. You are now on a totally different playing ground. It's an interesting comparison but not at all valid. flea market is cash only usually.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    Paying with a debit card isn't much different from using only cash. I know who to file a report against if the product isn't delivered, but the amount that I expect to recover compared to the effort makes it comparable to having paid in cash with no recovery.

mokkol 11y ago

I totally understand your pain but I don't agree. We got rid of the CC on our signup (www.nusii.com). We got many more users because of that (3 to 4 times more) but we've seen that the conversion rate (trial to paid) was WAY lower. 4% instead of 40%. We don't exactly know why this is, but I think it is because the CC makes you want to try the product much more. You end up with a happier user. Our biggest mistake was getting rid of the CC on the signup. I could write a very similar blog post. Free trial period with a 60 days money back guaranty works the best for us and our users.

Karunamon 11y ago
The way you've phrased this, there's no surprise that you're converting less users, seeing as how the "conversion" is no longer automatic. Are you judging a conversion as someone that's paid for at least one month off service?