7 ms·

OpenBSD from a veteran Linux user perspective

84 points by mulander 11y ago

carlesfe 11y ago
Hi, OP here. This is actually the second revision of the text; I got some awesome feedback from other OpenBSD users and tried to improve it. I’ll be happy to hear your opinion and fix any errors that may still be on the text. This is my first time with a BSD and its idiosyncrasies. The idea is to create a guide for former "GNU userland" admins and help them jump to BSD or, at least, have a more informed opinion before making the jump. The post will be further updated since I've been receiving more emails :)
- laumars 11y ago
  Completely off topic, but I love your cookie notification. "This website uses third party cookies exclusively to collect analytics data. If you continue browsing or close this notice, you will accept their use. The EU now requires all sites to display this banner which confuses users and does nothing, actually, to improve your privacy."
  - carlesfe 11y ago
    Yeah, it was quite sad to read on HN how non-EU users complain about getting the same notification which has no legal (nor technical) effect on their computers. That's the price of having completely tech ignorant legislators, I guess. I also took some time writing a small javascript code to handle it, in case you're in the EU and need to wait for user confirmation to set the cookies: https://github.com/cfenollosa/eu-cookie-law https://github.com/cfenollosa/eu-cookie-law
- keithpeter 11y ago
  I agree with your point about the default partition layout providing too little space for the src trees. I ended up editing the partitions on the second install.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    I don't know why this has not been fixed. It's been the case for a while that the default /usr partition is too small if you intend to do kernel and userland compiles and keep up with errata in the stable ports tree. Maybe it's that there is an assumption that most users will not do this (they do discourage it, but it's the only way to apply errata). I try to remember to change the default layout on a new install; another option is to symlink /usr/src to a directory on a larger partition.
    - carlesfe 11y ago
      I started a discussion on the mailing lists trying to suggest a default /usr size to 5GB, maybe you can contribute :)
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  I use FreeBSD instead of OpenBSD, but for your next revision, I'd recommend symlinks for your mount problems with build directories. Before I switched over to ZFS, I would always just create a /home/ports and symlink /usr/ports over to it, same with /usr/src and /usr/obj. Bit ugly, but it works.
  - Mordak 11y ago
    This is a good suggestion. OP could also mount /usr/ports, /usr/obj, etc. via NFS from a dedicated build machine, and just pkg_add the built packages from /usr/ports/packages/, or 'make install' precompiled errata from /usr/src/. Having a dedicated build machine also keeps all the build dependency stuff contained elsewhere, and makes it easy to update multiple machines.
  - carlesfe 11y ago
    Thanks for the suggestion. I might end up doing that, since I can't compile some of the biggest ports (php-5.6 right now). This seems to be a common newbie problem. Expert users change the default partitioning on install, knowing they may need to compile some big port, but I think 2GB isn't a safe default for those people who will precisely be using the defaults since they don't know any better.
JoshTriplett 11y ago
The differences between GNU and UNIX behavior can be substantial. I used a SunOS system for a few terms in college; I used Debian to get work done, but for a few things we had to make sure our code compiled and ran on the SunOS system. One of the first things I noticed in the short while before I put the GNU tools at the front of my path: the SunOS tools wanted all options before all other arguments. So if you have "ls something", and you hit up, space, -l, enter, (or "!! -l" if you prefer) then instead of the long listing you expected, you get the same short listing as before, along with an error like "-l, no such file or directory". It's minor, but it's one of those things that adds up when you're used to more capable tools and find yourself in a less capable environment. OpenBSD doesn't necessarily suffer from the same deficiencies (I certainly don't know if they have that one or not), but when you're used to coreutils, any other tools can be a shock, and not typically in a good way. The same goes for environments like busybox, but at least there it's for a good reason: size constraints. I'd be curious to hear examples where the reverse is true: are there instances of the standard command-line tools available on other UNIXen being substantially better than the GNU userspace tools?
- justincormack 11y ago
  ifconfig works in the BSDs and can control all kinds of interfaces, rather than being a broken deprecated tool. Obviously that is not entirely comparable as there is ip. Generally i dont notice much difference - you are comparing to old Unixes like SunOS that had very limited commands. AIX is like that too.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    Also, most if not all the gnu variants of common utilities are in ports if you need them.
    - justincormack 11y ago
      I have to admit to never having installed any extra GNU stuff except gmake in a BSD, everything else just works...
- 11y ago
batou 11y ago
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Got a few CentOS 6.x boxes under my command at the moment. At the same time I've got a NetBSD/OpenBSD background. I ran NetBSD for years on Sun SPARC kit and thoroughly enjoyed it. This eventually rolled onto OpenBSD because TBH it just works (to a point) and everything is easy to find. However I end up with CentOS every time when it comes to rolling out something professionally in production. Why is this? 1. The amount of information on how to solve even the most complicated problems is a Google away every time. Sure I solve most problems from my head but when I've got a CIFS mount that dumps stack, there's an answer there in 30 seconds. 2. I can just leave CentOS to it for a decade and yum update it as required. No PITA world changers every 6 months as a new release drops. 3. The OS and the packages are considered as one singular concept. I wasn't a fan of this idea initially but the fact you can drag your kernel and any part of your userspace up from the same source is really cool. There's only one update mechanism to consider. This is stupidly convenient when you have Ansible in the picture for example. 4. IO perf, particularly on SSDs is 2-3x better on Linux on the same kit (HP DL380 gen 8, Samsung 845 DC PRO). As a side issue, both are crap on the desktop so I'm sitting here on Windows 8.1...
- josteink 11y ago
  > As a side issue, both are crap on the desktop so I'm sitting here on Windows 8.1... Which just goes to show how we all are different. Windows 8.1 was what pushed me to move my main laptop (also used by wife, etc) to Ubuntu. It has worked great, and just yesterday I discovered Linux automatically handles (SANE) scanners network-transparently via saned. I had no idea. Connect scanner to server and start scanning applications (including scripts) on the laptop. It just works. With zero configuration. Try that on Windows! I'm literally finding Linux on the desktop the greatest thing ever these days.
  - batou 11y ago
    Linux on the desktop isn't terrible until you hit an edge case to be honest. Typically for me, it's printers and power management. I have a wireless scanner and printer combo (HP 2450). To set this up on windows, I turned it on, pressed the WiFi button and the WPS button on my router and File -> Print and/or open up Fax and Scan and that's it. Just works. No setup for scanning or printing. On linux, 30 minutes arguing with hplip and the output looks like ass whatever switch you flip and SANE doesn't even see it. Then there's PM. On my 9-cell Lenovo X201, 8.5 hours on windows 8.1. I managed to nab max 5 hours out of every Linux distro I tried (Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS) with powertop tuning. The cruel irony is that CentOS gets better battery life in a VM in Windows than it does on the bare metal. YMMV as they say but I really can't be arsed with anything that gets in the way of doing stuff these days. Tuning a Linux distro was fun about 10 years ago for me. Not any more.
nailer 11y ago
2015 era command line Rosetta Stone, including OpenBSD and current Debian: https://certsimple.com/rosetta-stone https://certsimple.com/rosetta-stone Also: SmartOS and FreeBSD.
brynet 11y ago
> The base system config files are properly centralized in /etc, but not the ports. OpenBSD generally stores ports configuration in /etc as well, however; some software has unique directory layout requirements and/or may be chrooted in /var. In that case they need access to their config files.
zf00002 11y ago
It's kinda strange that he spends so much time documenting his old-school linux admin rep, then really complains about building from source and not being able to just apt-get upgrade. Building from source is the way we used to do it.
- carlesfe 11y ago
  But one does get used so quickly to the nice things... :) That's the main reason that put me off Slackware and Gentoo. Package managers are a great improvement. Think about it: we also spent a lot of time configuring drivers, and I think we all agree that hardware autodetection is something to be desired in 2015, isn't it? That was my thought with compiling from source. Not that there is anything wrong with it, I just found it very weird because I didn't know that was the usual way to go on BSDs
  - laumars 11y ago
    That depends on the BSD. FreeBSD does have binary repositories and a pretty decent package manager (pkgng). PC-BSD is basically a distro of FreeBSD, so would also have the same; as does DragonflyBSD, which is a much older fork but these days a standalone BSD in it's own right. NetBSD still uses pkgsrc which does support binary packages but the command line tools are a little less intuitive in my opinion. Incidentally, a few other UNIXes also support pkgsrc. You may already be aware of this, but it's worth noting that the different BSD's are more like separate OS's, rather than distributions of the same OS like you see with Linux. eg DragonflyBSD, despite being a fork of FreeBSD, has some quite significant kernel changes (different schedulers, file systems, etc). And it's a similar story with NetBSD and OpenBSD too - though they're forked from other, much older, BSDs.
  - woodman 11y ago
    That is the nice thing about having a ports tree. On freebsd I've got a jailed instance of poudriere that automatically builds binaries of the ports that I'm interested in with the compile flags I want. Having a local build server is pretty awesome and makes a lot of things that would otherwise be difficult - very easy. For example, samba4 needs some compile options flipped on in bind that are not on by default in the binary package (bind isn't the default dns server in samba4). Just add the needed flags to the options directory in poudriere, and now everybody who cares to grab a binary package from the build server can have it - and it is always up to date. Of course the same thing can be done from the ports tree itself, per instance, but a build server starts to make sense after about five machines. This is actually what got me to switch from linux to freebsd (though had I been around - systemd would have caused a ragequit), after I started running into problems related to how hairy my ~/bin and ~/lib directories were getting. Hopefully there is a nice linux solution that I just overlooked at the time, but I'd be surprised if the awesomeness of /usr/ports is approached.
barosl 11y ago
> For example, ext4 is officially supported read-only but in my case it didn't read some folders properly. For some reason, I've thought ext4 is "pervasive" or "fundamental" until now. I assumed it to be readable by most systems. So it came as a surprise that OpenBSD could not correctly read a ext4 filesystem. But thinking again, last time I checked, Linux could not write to a HFS+ filesystem, either. OpenBSD's FFS might also not be not supported. So a BSD not supporting the Linux filesystem is very natural. Probably one of the "greatest common divisor" filesystems, which are supported by all major operating systems, should be FAT32. Which is a shame, as it isn't neither an open standard nor a thing from the Unix culture. It also lacks journaling support, which I consider essential. Any alternatives?
- laumars 11y ago
  FAT32 is an open standard AFAIK, however it's extensions (eg long file names) and forks (eg exFAT) are patented. But in fairness, FAT32 isn't much use without support for long file names. Interestingly, some FAT32 forks do support journalling. Sadly those tend to be the patents Microsoft are the most proactive in upholding. As for an alternative, ZFS is supported on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris and OS X - so that's one option. Albeit it's not a great option in this specific criteria. ext2 receives pretty good support as well, even on Windows. However ext2 doesn't support journalling. Another option is to run ext3 as that gracefully downgrades to ext2 if no ext3 driver is available. Sadly NTFS is probably the most ubiquitous journalling file system. ntfs-3g - which are actually pretty decent drivers - has been ported to quite a few platforms.
  - wtallis 11y ago
    The FAT32 long file name patents are expired. That's a big part of why exFAT exists.
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  UDF. It was made for optical media, but works just as well on hard drives. About the only caveat I've found is that you have to be pretty particular regarding what format you choose, but I've found that Windows' format for UDF tends to make the most compatible disks.
pronoiac 11y ago
> In a few years we've gone from /etc/init.d/sshd restart to service sshd restart to systemctl start sshd. Aw man, I just got used to the second one!
- rjcz 11y ago
  OpenBSD grows and changes, and its rc.d(8) is no exception! man 8 rcctl
simplexion 11y ago
"But this time I didn't want to use a Linux installation which wants me to reboot every 5 days because of some critical patch. I'm looking at you, Ubuntu." Critical patch... I think you mean kernel update and you don't have to perform them. A critical kernel patch that requires you to restart every 5 days would be ridiculous.
markhellewell 11y ago
For anyone who reads this and is put off by the thought of having to update their system from source; there are binary patches available (both OS and packages) using the `openup' utility from https://stable.mtier.org/ https://stable.mtier.org/

84 points by mulander 11y ago

Hi, OP here. This is actually the second revision of the text; I got some awesome feedback from other OpenBSD users and tried to improve it. I’ll be happy to hear your opinion and fix any errors that may still be on the text. This is my first time with a BSD and its idiosyncrasies. The idea is to create a guide for former "GNU userland" admins and help them jump to BSD or, at least, have a more informed opinion before making the jump. The post will be further updated since I've been receiving more emails :)

laumars 11y ago
Completely off topic, but I love your cookie notification. "This website uses third party cookies exclusively to collect analytics data. If you continue browsing or close this notice, you will accept their use. The EU now requires all sites to display this banner which confuses users and does nothing, actually, to improve your privacy."
- carlesfe 11y ago
  Yeah, it was quite sad to read on HN how non-EU users complain about getting the same notification which has no legal (nor technical) effect on their computers. That's the price of having completely tech ignorant legislators, I guess. I also took some time writing a small javascript code to handle it, in case you're in the EU and need to wait for user confirmation to set the cookies: https://github.com/cfenollosa/eu-cookie-law https://github.com/cfenollosa/eu-cookie-law
keithpeter 11y ago
I agree with your point about the default partition layout providing too little space for the src trees. I ended up editing the partitions on the second install.
- ams6110 11y ago
  I don't know why this has not been fixed. It's been the case for a while that the default /usr partition is too small if you intend to do kernel and userland compiles and keep up with errata in the stable ports tree. Maybe it's that there is an assumption that most users will not do this (they do discourage it, but it's the only way to apply errata). I try to remember to change the default layout on a new install; another option is to symlink /usr/src to a directory on a larger partition.
  - carlesfe 11y ago
    I started a discussion on the mailing lists trying to suggest a default /usr size to 5GB, maybe you can contribute :)
Sanddancer 11y ago
I use FreeBSD instead of OpenBSD, but for your next revision, I'd recommend symlinks for your mount problems with build directories. Before I switched over to ZFS, I would always just create a /home/ports and symlink /usr/ports over to it, same with /usr/src and /usr/obj. Bit ugly, but it works.
- Mordak 11y ago
  This is a good suggestion. OP could also mount /usr/ports, /usr/obj, etc. via NFS from a dedicated build machine, and just pkg_add the built packages from /usr/ports/packages/, or 'make install' precompiled errata from /usr/src/. Having a dedicated build machine also keeps all the build dependency stuff contained elsewhere, and makes it easy to update multiple machines.
- carlesfe 11y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion. I might end up doing that, since I can't compile some of the biggest ports (php-5.6 right now). This seems to be a common newbie problem. Expert users change the default partitioning on install, knowing they may need to compile some big port, but I think 2GB isn't a safe default for those people who will precisely be using the defaults since they don't know any better.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

The differences between GNU and UNIX behavior can be substantial. I used a SunOS system for a few terms in college; I used Debian to get work done, but for a few things we had to make sure our code compiled and ran on the SunOS system. One of the first things I noticed in the short while before I put the GNU tools at the front of my path: the SunOS tools wanted all options before all other arguments. So if you have "ls something", and you hit up, space, -l, enter, (or "!! -l" if you prefer) then instead of the long listing you expected, you get the same short listing as before, along with an error like "-l, no such file or directory". It's minor, but it's one of those things that adds up when you're used to more capable tools and find yourself in a less capable environment. OpenBSD doesn't necessarily suffer from the same deficiencies (I certainly don't know if they have that one or not), but when you're used to coreutils, any other tools can be a shock, and not typically in a good way. The same goes for environments like busybox, but at least there it's for a good reason: size constraints. I'd be curious to hear examples where the reverse is true: are there instances of the standard command-line tools available on other UNIXen being substantially better than the GNU userspace tools?

justincormack 11y ago
ifconfig works in the BSDs and can control all kinds of interfaces, rather than being a broken deprecated tool. Obviously that is not entirely comparable as there is ip. Generally i dont notice much difference - you are comparing to old Unixes like SunOS that had very limited commands. AIX is like that too.
- ams6110 11y ago
  Also, most if not all the gnu variants of common utilities are in ports if you need them.
  - justincormack 11y ago
    I have to admit to never having installed any extra GNU stuff except gmake in a BSD, everything else just works...
11y ago

batou 11y ago

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Got a few CentOS 6.x boxes under my command at the moment. At the same time I've got a NetBSD/OpenBSD background. I ran NetBSD for years on Sun SPARC kit and thoroughly enjoyed it. This eventually rolled onto OpenBSD because TBH it just works (to a point) and everything is easy to find. However I end up with CentOS every time when it comes to rolling out something professionally in production. Why is this? 1. The amount of information on how to solve even the most complicated problems is a Google away every time. Sure I solve most problems from my head but when I've got a CIFS mount that dumps stack, there's an answer there in 30 seconds. 2. I can just leave CentOS to it for a decade and yum update it as required. No PITA world changers every 6 months as a new release drops. 3. The OS and the packages are considered as one singular concept. I wasn't a fan of this idea initially but the fact you can drag your kernel and any part of your userspace up from the same source is really cool. There's only one update mechanism to consider. This is stupidly convenient when you have Ansible in the picture for example. 4. IO perf, particularly on SSDs is 2-3x better on Linux on the same kit (HP DL380 gen 8, Samsung 845 DC PRO). As a side issue, both are crap on the desktop so I'm sitting here on Windows 8.1...

josteink 11y ago
> As a side issue, both are crap on the desktop so I'm sitting here on Windows 8.1... Which just goes to show how we all are different. Windows 8.1 was what pushed me to move my main laptop (also used by wife, etc) to Ubuntu. It has worked great, and just yesterday I discovered Linux automatically handles (SANE) scanners network-transparently via saned. I had no idea. Connect scanner to server and start scanning applications (including scripts) on the laptop. It just works. With zero configuration. Try that on Windows! I'm literally finding Linux on the desktop the greatest thing ever these days.
- batou 11y ago
  Linux on the desktop isn't terrible until you hit an edge case to be honest. Typically for me, it's printers and power management. I have a wireless scanner and printer combo (HP 2450). To set this up on windows, I turned it on, pressed the WiFi button and the WPS button on my router and File -> Print and/or open up Fax and Scan and that's it. Just works. No setup for scanning or printing. On linux, 30 minutes arguing with hplip and the output looks like ass whatever switch you flip and SANE doesn't even see it. Then there's PM. On my 9-cell Lenovo X201, 8.5 hours on windows 8.1. I managed to nab max 5 hours out of every Linux distro I tried (Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS) with powertop tuning. The cruel irony is that CentOS gets better battery life in a VM in Windows than it does on the bare metal. YMMV as they say but I really can't be arsed with anything that gets in the way of doing stuff these days. Tuning a Linux distro was fun about 10 years ago for me. Not any more.

nailer 11y ago

2015 era command line Rosetta Stone, including OpenBSD and current Debian: https://certsimple.com/rosetta-stone https://certsimple.com/rosetta-stone Also: SmartOS and FreeBSD.

brynet 11y ago

> The base system config files are properly centralized in /etc, but not the ports. OpenBSD generally stores ports configuration in /etc as well, however; some software has unique directory layout requirements and/or may be chrooted in /var. In that case they need access to their config files.

zf00002 11y ago

It's kinda strange that he spends so much time documenting his old-school linux admin rep, then really complains about building from source and not being able to just apt-get upgrade. Building from source is the way we used to do it.

carlesfe 11y ago
But one does get used so quickly to the nice things... :) That's the main reason that put me off Slackware and Gentoo. Package managers are a great improvement. Think about it: we also spent a lot of time configuring drivers, and I think we all agree that hardware autodetection is something to be desired in 2015, isn't it? That was my thought with compiling from source. Not that there is anything wrong with it, I just found it very weird because I didn't know that was the usual way to go on BSDs
- laumars 11y ago
  That depends on the BSD. FreeBSD does have binary repositories and a pretty decent package manager (pkgng). PC-BSD is basically a distro of FreeBSD, so would also have the same; as does DragonflyBSD, which is a much older fork but these days a standalone BSD in it's own right. NetBSD still uses pkgsrc which does support binary packages but the command line tools are a little less intuitive in my opinion. Incidentally, a few other UNIXes also support pkgsrc. You may already be aware of this, but it's worth noting that the different BSD's are more like separate OS's, rather than distributions of the same OS like you see with Linux. eg DragonflyBSD, despite being a fork of FreeBSD, has some quite significant kernel changes (different schedulers, file systems, etc). And it's a similar story with NetBSD and OpenBSD too - though they're forked from other, much older, BSDs.
- woodman 11y ago
  That is the nice thing about having a ports tree. On freebsd I've got a jailed instance of poudriere that automatically builds binaries of the ports that I'm interested in with the compile flags I want. Having a local build server is pretty awesome and makes a lot of things that would otherwise be difficult - very easy. For example, samba4 needs some compile options flipped on in bind that are not on by default in the binary package (bind isn't the default dns server in samba4). Just add the needed flags to the options directory in poudriere, and now everybody who cares to grab a binary package from the build server can have it - and it is always up to date. Of course the same thing can be done from the ports tree itself, per instance, but a build server starts to make sense after about five machines. This is actually what got me to switch from linux to freebsd (though had I been around - systemd would have caused a ragequit), after I started running into problems related to how hairy my ~/bin and ~/lib directories were getting. Hopefully there is a nice linux solution that I just overlooked at the time, but I'd be surprised if the awesomeness of /usr/ports is approached.

barosl 11y ago

> For example, ext4 is officially supported read-only but in my case it didn't read some folders properly. For some reason, I've thought ext4 is "pervasive" or "fundamental" until now. I assumed it to be readable by most systems. So it came as a surprise that OpenBSD could not correctly read a ext4 filesystem. But thinking again, last time I checked, Linux could not write to a HFS+ filesystem, either. OpenBSD's FFS might also not be not supported. So a BSD not supporting the Linux filesystem is very natural. Probably one of the "greatest common divisor" filesystems, which are supported by all major operating systems, should be FAT32. Which is a shame, as it isn't neither an open standard nor a thing from the Unix culture. It also lacks journaling support, which I consider essential. Any alternatives?

laumars 11y ago
FAT32 is an open standard AFAIK, however it's extensions (eg long file names) and forks (eg exFAT) are patented. But in fairness, FAT32 isn't much use without support for long file names. Interestingly, some FAT32 forks do support journalling. Sadly those tend to be the patents Microsoft are the most proactive in upholding. As for an alternative, ZFS is supported on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris and OS X - so that's one option. Albeit it's not a great option in this specific criteria. ext2 receives pretty good support as well, even on Windows. However ext2 doesn't support journalling. Another option is to run ext3 as that gracefully downgrades to ext2 if no ext3 driver is available. Sadly NTFS is probably the most ubiquitous journalling file system. ntfs-3g - which are actually pretty decent drivers - has been ported to quite a few platforms.
- wtallis 11y ago
  The FAT32 long file name patents are expired. That's a big part of why exFAT exists.
Sanddancer 11y ago
UDF. It was made for optical media, but works just as well on hard drives. About the only caveat I've found is that you have to be pretty particular regarding what format you choose, but I've found that Windows' format for UDF tends to make the most compatible disks.

pronoiac 11y ago

> In a few years we've gone from /etc/init.d/sshd restart to service sshd restart to systemctl start sshd. Aw man, I just got used to the second one!

rjcz 11y ago
OpenBSD grows and changes, and its rc.d(8) is no exception! man 8 rcctl

simplexion 11y ago

"But this time I didn't want to use a Linux installation which wants me to reboot every 5 days because of some critical patch. I'm looking at you, Ubuntu." Critical patch... I think you mean kernel update and you don't have to perform them. A critical kernel patch that requires you to restart every 5 days would be ridiculous.

markhellewell 11y ago

For anyone who reads this and is put off by the thought of having to update their system from source; there are binary patches available (both OS and packages) using the `openup' utility from https://stable.mtier.org/ https://stable.mtier.org/