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Hey there, are there any Greeks in startup/tech scene that want to express opinion on whether the government is doing the right thing about this referendum? I'

Hey there, are there any Greeks in startup/tech scene that want to express opinion on whether the government is doing the right thing about this referendum? I'm really short on quality, direct feedback about what Tsipras is doing. All I can read about the topic is politics influenced.

mhb 11y ago
I don't know why Greek geeks, in particular, would have any insight, but here is what some economists think: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the-not-very-serious-people-call-for-greferendum.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the...
orless 11y ago
Not sure if it's of much relevance, but my ex-collegue blogs on Greek start-ups: * http://eulenausathen.com/ http://eulenausathen.com/ * https://twitter.com/eulenausathen https://twitter.com/eulenausathen
geonik 11y ago
Greek startup owner here. Our government is trying to recover from a mistake by commiting a bigger one. Our Varoufakis-illusioned prime minister thought that he could force a better deal from Eurozone members by blackmailing with a worldwide economic Lehman Brothers moment. This obviously didn't work, and the referendum theatre was setup to cover up the failure. That in turn, is a huge gamble, putting the country's prospects for generations to come at risk.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >Our Varoufakis-illusioned prime minister thought that he could force a better deal from Eurozone members by blackmailing with a worldwide economic Lehman Brothers moment. "Better deal" meaning "a deal which doesn't involve breaking promises they made to the electorate". Clearly such a deal wasn't possible, hence here we are. The idea that this is somehow blackmail is ludicrous.
  - mpyne 11y ago
    Don't pin everyone on "that's what the people want though!!!"... there's a reason we don't simply setup government so that whatever passing whim the populace manages to latch onto gets adopted and then cast aside once the populace gets bored with it.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      Greece has already voted in one government that promised an end to austerity and then reneged upon its promise when threatened by the Eurozone. I think that if the successive government also reneged upon its promise, that would signal the true end of democracy is Greece.
      - computer 11y ago
        Or it would signal that ending austerity is actually impossible for Greek politicians. If several parties in a row had promised to double the number of moons, they would also have had to renege on that promise. The main difference is, of course, that it wasn't clear that it would be impossible to end austerity, with some thinking that the Troika would give in. But that doesn't mean the end of democracy.
        crdoconnor 11y ago
        >Or it would signal that ending austerity is actually impossible It basically signaled that the Troika will cajole, threaten, blackmail and generally do everything in their power to keep the austerity train going. Ultimately, though, that's the way to destroy the currency union. An economic policy based upon wage suppression and privatization of monopoly industries is nice for some people, but it isn't sustainable.
  - asuffield 11y ago
    So they promised something they couldn't deliver and now haven't delivered it. This appears to have done nothing to help the situation. "Blackmail" might not be precisely the right word, but you could perhaps argue it's some kind of fraud? It's certainly a failure of their entire platform.
- ak1394 11y ago
  What your perception of Varoufakis is? He seems reasonable in his assumption that more austerity will not work, and Greece needs a new approach to solve its economical woes?
Dimitris 11y ago
I suggest that you follow this Twitter account: http://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst http://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst Summarizing in a post the Greek problem is almost impossible, but I would say that the referendum is a terrible idea, especially at this moment. (greek student/developer)
- mahouse 11y ago
  That guy really looks biased.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  "Tsipras turning this into a "fundamental democratic issue" (his words) is the most shameful populist trick in the book." This ("shameful populism!") is kind of just another way of saying "I don't like this democracy thing. Stop it!"
  - carapat_virulat 11y ago
    Yeah, most of the people that are against the referendum seem to follow some kind of reasoning like: "Syriza should take the decision by themselves so that when everything goes to hell only they are to blame and not the Greek electorate". Which is strange because those who will have to endure the consequences of the decision will be the Greek people, so I don't understand what is so negative about involving them in the choice. The bad thing is, both ways will probably mean hell to the Greeks so it's not like there is a good answer. Trying to pay an unpayable debt by destroying the economy will never work, and changing back to the drachma and devaluating the coin won't probably do much good in an economy like Greece where there are very limited exports. I am not sure what was the underlying expectations of the austerity route, the official narrative of eventually paying the debt is obviously not going to happen, so I suppose that the underlying message was to play along for X more years until the EU decides to solve the mess at some point. But playing along any longer was not something that politicians could sell to the Greek electorate anymore. And the EU intervening and solving the mess is probably impossible to sell to the electorate of the strong economies of Europe like Germany, specially after so many years of "lazy greeks" headlines. So some sort of scenario like the current one was bound to happen sooner or later.
elorant 11y ago
Greek here. It seems that Tsipras is trying to pull his last card by going nuclear but the general consensus amongst non government supporters is that he did more harm than good. There was a belief that even a bad deal with EU was far better than a non-deal and it seemed that finally they’ve found some common ground and an agreement was a matter of days. The referendum announcement caught pretty much everyone by surprise. There is a strong trend towards the Yes vote in the referendum and most people I’ve talked to view it as a consensus towards Euro regardless of how the government will try to put it. And there is still hope that even in the last minute a deal will be made for the sake of everyone involved. You have to understand that to most people in the tech industry or any other person with some kind of liberal thinking, Tsipras is like an alien. An idealist of a communist era that was never popular in Greece and whose decisions and actions seem insane. We don’t understand what his strategy is and whether he’s bluffing or really want to take us out of the euro.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  Do you think it is better to stay in the Eurozone and continue to pay down interest on a $300bn debt over the next decade, or to default on the debt, leave the Eurozone, and try to begin anew? Would the Greek economy even be strong enough to support the latter?
  - elorant 11y ago
    It’s a common secret that once there will be a true unification of the member states all national debt will become EU owned (by issuing Eurobonds for example). Regardless of that, as it stands now the debt isn’t our real problem because we pay a very low interest (less than 3%) and the maturity has been extended and there is willingness to be extended even further. Our problems are structural ones like the fact that we pay almost 80% of the state budget in pensions and salaries, which is the highest in of all EU members. As for leaving the Eurozone, I seriously doubt whether we could default on all our debt. We can’t default on IMF’s debt for example. Or ECB’s. Because once we leave we’ll still need the support of the ECB otherwise our banks will collapse in a matter of weeks. Our economy is still very fragile, exports are less than 20% of GDP. Tourism might flourish because of the devaluation of the local currency but it still won’t be enough.
therealunreal 11y ago
It's really not easy to answer if it is the right thing or the wrong thing. I will try to enumerate a few key points while being as objective as possible. a) Most Greeks feel that they have been wronged or cheated. Their anger is usually against 1) other Greeks (i.e. public sector employees against freelancers for not paying taxes, or private sector employees against public for being lazy) 2) against Germany, for austerity, the WWII and the loans they haven't repaid 3) against large multinational interests, etc. b) All (recent) governments, including this one (so far), have fallen victim to voting in policies that benefit special interests, large or small, instead of making a few basic reforms that are necessary. What is necessary and what is just is debatable, of course. It's a constant battle between different social groups, where everyone is right. c) There are a lot more and deeper problems in Greece that I can't go into, that fuel an endless feeling of injustice. Things that are taken for granted in other European countries do not work like that over here. This is why some of the analogies made when criticizing Greeks are false. Now, about the referendum. One side, the government, is saying that a "No" will give them more power to continue the negotiations and bring in a better agreement. They are trying to reduce the issue to democracy in the EU, national pride and independence. Other sides say that the government's proposal and troika's proposal are very similar and this is a false dilemma that only serves the ruling party's interests, and some vague Drachma lobby. The previous prime minister even went out and said that the deal offered by Troika is "unacceptable" (while the one they had made was better but they were forced out) but we have to accept it. One important point I would like to make is that no one seems to know what either deal really says, but no one bothers to explain it to the people. The news only report the "bad" and everyone is spreading FUD. I don't know what's best. I have an opinion but I'm afraid there are things in play that I do not understand. One thing I do know is that many of our youth want more Europe and less Greece, and a very large number have already left.

mhb 11y ago

I don't know why Greek geeks, in particular, would have any insight, but here is what some economists think: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the-not-very-serious-people-call-for-greferendum.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/06/the...

orless 11y ago

Not sure if it's of much relevance, but my ex-collegue blogs on Greek start-ups: * http://eulenausathen.com/ http://eulenausathen.com/ * https://twitter.com/eulenausathen https://twitter.com/eulenausathen

geonik 11y ago

Greek startup owner here. Our government is trying to recover from a mistake by commiting a bigger one. Our Varoufakis-illusioned prime minister thought that he could force a better deal from Eurozone members by blackmailing with a worldwide economic Lehman Brothers moment. This obviously didn't work, and the referendum theatre was setup to cover up the failure. That in turn, is a huge gamble, putting the country's prospects for generations to come at risk.

crdoconnor 11y ago
>Our Varoufakis-illusioned prime minister thought that he could force a better deal from Eurozone members by blackmailing with a worldwide economic Lehman Brothers moment. "Better deal" meaning "a deal which doesn't involve breaking promises they made to the electorate". Clearly such a deal wasn't possible, hence here we are. The idea that this is somehow blackmail is ludicrous.
- mpyne 11y ago
  Don't pin everyone on "that's what the people want though!!!"... there's a reason we don't simply setup government so that whatever passing whim the populace manages to latch onto gets adopted and then cast aside once the populace gets bored with it.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Greece has already voted in one government that promised an end to austerity and then reneged upon its promise when threatened by the Eurozone. I think that if the successive government also reneged upon its promise, that would signal the true end of democracy is Greece.
    - computer 11y ago
      Or it would signal that ending austerity is actually impossible for Greek politicians. If several parties in a row had promised to double the number of moons, they would also have had to renege on that promise. The main difference is, of course, that it wasn't clear that it would be impossible to end austerity, with some thinking that the Troika would give in. But that doesn't mean the end of democracy.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >Or it would signal that ending austerity is actually impossible It basically signaled that the Troika will cajole, threaten, blackmail and generally do everything in their power to keep the austerity train going. Ultimately, though, that's the way to destroy the currency union. An economic policy based upon wage suppression and privatization of monopoly industries is nice for some people, but it isn't sustainable.
- asuffield 11y ago
  So they promised something they couldn't deliver and now haven't delivered it. This appears to have done nothing to help the situation. "Blackmail" might not be precisely the right word, but you could perhaps argue it's some kind of fraud? It's certainly a failure of their entire platform.
ak1394 11y ago
What your perception of Varoufakis is? He seems reasonable in his assumption that more austerity will not work, and Greece needs a new approach to solve its economical woes?

Dimitris 11y ago

I suggest that you follow this Twitter account: http://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst http://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst Summarizing in a post the Greek problem is almost impossible, but I would say that the referendum is a terrible idea, especially at this moment. (greek student/developer)

mahouse 11y ago
That guy really looks biased.
crdoconnor 11y ago
"Tsipras turning this into a "fundamental democratic issue" (his words) is the most shameful populist trick in the book." This ("shameful populism!") is kind of just another way of saying "I don't like this democracy thing. Stop it!"
- carapat_virulat 11y ago
  Yeah, most of the people that are against the referendum seem to follow some kind of reasoning like: "Syriza should take the decision by themselves so that when everything goes to hell only they are to blame and not the Greek electorate". Which is strange because those who will have to endure the consequences of the decision will be the Greek people, so I don't understand what is so negative about involving them in the choice. The bad thing is, both ways will probably mean hell to the Greeks so it's not like there is a good answer. Trying to pay an unpayable debt by destroying the economy will never work, and changing back to the drachma and devaluating the coin won't probably do much good in an economy like Greece where there are very limited exports. I am not sure what was the underlying expectations of the austerity route, the official narrative of eventually paying the debt is obviously not going to happen, so I suppose that the underlying message was to play along for X more years until the EU decides to solve the mess at some point. But playing along any longer was not something that politicians could sell to the Greek electorate anymore. And the EU intervening and solving the mess is probably impossible to sell to the electorate of the strong economies of Europe like Germany, specially after so many years of "lazy greeks" headlines. So some sort of scenario like the current one was bound to happen sooner or later.

elorant 11y ago

Greek here. It seems that Tsipras is trying to pull his last card by going nuclear but the general consensus amongst non government supporters is that he did more harm than good. There was a belief that even a bad deal with EU was far better than a non-deal and it seemed that finally they’ve found some common ground and an agreement was a matter of days. The referendum announcement caught pretty much everyone by surprise. There is a strong trend towards the Yes vote in the referendum and most people I’ve talked to view it as a consensus towards Euro regardless of how the government will try to put it. And there is still hope that even in the last minute a deal will be made for the sake of everyone involved. You have to understand that to most people in the tech industry or any other person with some kind of liberal thinking, Tsipras is like an alien. An idealist of a communist era that was never popular in Greece and whose decisions and actions seem insane. We don’t understand what his strategy is and whether he’s bluffing or really want to take us out of the euro.

roymurdock 11y ago
Do you think it is better to stay in the Eurozone and continue to pay down interest on a $300bn debt over the next decade, or to default on the debt, leave the Eurozone, and try to begin anew? Would the Greek economy even be strong enough to support the latter?
- elorant 11y ago
  It’s a common secret that once there will be a true unification of the member states all national debt will become EU owned (by issuing Eurobonds for example). Regardless of that, as it stands now the debt isn’t our real problem because we pay a very low interest (less than 3%) and the maturity has been extended and there is willingness to be extended even further. Our problems are structural ones like the fact that we pay almost 80% of the state budget in pensions and salaries, which is the highest in of all EU members. As for leaving the Eurozone, I seriously doubt whether we could default on all our debt. We can’t default on IMF’s debt for example. Or ECB’s. Because once we leave we’ll still need the support of the ECB otherwise our banks will collapse in a matter of weeks. Our economy is still very fragile, exports are less than 20% of GDP. Tourism might flourish because of the devaluation of the local currency but it still won’t be enough.

therealunreal 11y ago

It's really not easy to answer if it is the right thing or the wrong thing. I will try to enumerate a few key points while being as objective as possible. a) Most Greeks feel that they have been wronged or cheated. Their anger is usually against 1) other Greeks (i.e. public sector employees against freelancers for not paying taxes, or private sector employees against public for being lazy) 2) against Germany, for austerity, the WWII and the loans they haven't repaid 3) against large multinational interests, etc. b) All (recent) governments, including this one (so far), have fallen victim to voting in policies that benefit special interests, large or small, instead of making a few basic reforms that are necessary. What is necessary and what is just is debatable, of course. It's a constant battle between different social groups, where everyone is right. c) There are a lot more and deeper problems in Greece that I can't go into, that fuel an endless feeling of injustice. Things that are taken for granted in other European countries do not work like that over here. This is why some of the analogies made when criticizing Greeks are false. Now, about the referendum. One side, the government, is saying that a "No" will give them more power to continue the negotiations and bring in a better agreement. They are trying to reduce the issue to democracy in the EU, national pride and independence. Other sides say that the government's proposal and troika's proposal are very similar and this is a false dilemma that only serves the ruling party's interests, and some vague Drachma lobby. The previous prime minister even went out and said that the deal offered by Troika is "unacceptable" (while the one they had made was better but they were forced out) but we have to accept it. One important point I would like to make is that no one seems to know what either deal really says, but no one bothers to explain it to the people. The news only report the "bad" and everyone is spreading FUD. I don't know what's best. I have an opinion but I'm afraid there are things in play that I do not understand. One thing I do know is that many of our youth want more Europe and less Greece, and a very large number have already left.