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What is actually happening here is that Tsipras is simply trying to save face. Attempting to get the Troika (EU, IMF, ECB) to bend in the negotiations was a sui

by rsp1984 11y ago

What is actually happening here is that Tsipras is simply trying to save face. Attempting to get the Troika (EU, IMF, ECB) to bend in the negotiations was a suicide commando in the first place. Now he realizes that his plan failed and is trying last minute to shift responsibility to the Greek public (i.e. "let them decide what the right path is"). In any outcome event (Greece leaving Eurozone or Greece accepting Troika terms) he would be able to point to the referendum and tell everyone that it wasn't "his fault".

MisterWebz 11y ago
So letting the public decide their own fate is now called "shifting blame"?
- exDM69 11y ago
  They had ample time to put up a public vote weeks or months ago. Their deadline for submitting a proposal or accepting the terms given to them passed five days ago. They initially sent "wrong papers" to the participants of the EU ministers' meetings. Now the referendum. At this point, they are just playing time.
  - DominikR 11y ago
    They are now for the first time in power and only for 5 months. Of course they needed time to conduct negotiations to see, if there is a way to end austerity on the basis of a mutual agreement with the EU institutions. Apparently this didn't work out (ultimatum by the EU), but how could they find out without at least trying to negotiate with the EU. He wasn't voted into power to leave the Eurozone, he was voted into power to end austerity and stay in the Eurozone. When should he have called for a referendum? After the first negative response they received from the EU? This would be silly. Of course they tried to negotiate and to explore all possibilities until they either reached a mutually acceptable agreement with the EU or they received a final ultimatum.
TillE 11y ago
Given that he and his entire party are loudly supporting a "no" vote, I don't think this is the case. Their position is clear. They simply don't have a democratic mandate to accept continued, worsened austerity. Everyone basically agrees that if the vote is "yes", that will be the end of the Syriza government. If it's "no", well, then they have the support to continue rejecting austerity.
- return0 11y ago
  > They simply don't have a democratic mandate they were elected this January (democratically)
  - konstruktor 11y ago
    They were elected based on their promise not to accept more austerity. I would agree with parent that they don't have a democratic mandate to do the opposite now, even if they could legally do it.
  - vacri 11y ago
    A mandate is an authorisation to do something, not an open-ended power. The rest of that quoteed phrase references what the mandate was about - they were elected on a campaign to do the opposite course of action.
    - return0 11y ago
      Then whats the point of the referendum. If they insist on non-austerity, make a plan outside the euro.
- rsp1984 11y ago
  I don't understand your point. Their democratic mandate is to say no to Trioka terms. Great. That's what they did and it resulted in the situation we have now. If they continue down the path of their mandate it will result in Greece exiting the Eurozone. This should not be a surprise to anyone. The other choice is to accept Troika terms, keep Greece in the Eurozone, and potentially lose face. In any case it is a situation that the Tsipras government caused, a situation that was predictable and a situation that they should have to deal with and stand by themselves. The whole point of having a government is that the people should not be faced with having to make these kinds of decisions that involve many complexities and have long-ranging consequences. Calling in a referendum for precisely these decisions is a declaration of incompetence.
DominikR 11y ago
> What is actually happening here is that Tsipras is simply trying to save face. I disagree with you. He was democratically voted into power 5 months ago to end austerity, but NOT to leave the Euro currency or the EU. Now that he came to the conclusion that leaving the Euro currency is inevitable if Greece wants to end austerity he does the right thing any person in power should do: He lets the population decide thereby giving him a mandate to either continue austerity or leave the Euro currency, both of which he didn't get the mandate for when he was voted into power.
- rsp1984 11y ago
  For everybody who's not been living under a rock for the last five years it was, and is, obvious that the choice is either to accept Troika terms or to leave the Eurozone. The current situation can't be a surprise for anyone, especially not for the ones who voted for Tsipras. Tripras promised to end austerity without having to leave the EU. This was completely illusory in the first place. Politicians overpromise and fail, that's part of the game. The right response is to either be a man and continue to fight for the values you believe in or to admit defeat and step down. But you can't call in referendums every time the situation gets too hot, particularly not in circumstances like the current and within a couple of days. That's just ridiculous.
  - DominikR 11y ago
    There is no legal way for the EU to throw Greece out of the Eurozone without them agreeing to it. Greece could default, revert back to their national currency or keep the Euro currency and STAY in the EU at the same time. He declared what he wanted to do, this of course meant that he had to convince the other EU elites which required open ended negotiations in good faith. I'm sure that no one in their right minds in Greece believed that Tsipras simply could dictate something to Brussels. Apparently negotiations failed, that can always happen, but at least he tried. Also It is never ridiculous to let the people of a country decide especially on hard questions after the facts on the ground have changed. I never understood the mindset of people who loathe on democratic decision-making. You seem to believe that there never was the possibility to reach a mutually beneficial agreement to begin with, and Greece should simply roll over and let their economy contract another 25% after it has already contracted 25% in the last years. If this were the case (I disagree) then maybe it's for the best to exit the EU and work with the Russians and Chinese on building a better future for the Greek people.

by rsp1984 11y ago

MisterWebz 11y ago

So letting the public decide their own fate is now called "shifting blame"?

exDM69 11y ago
They had ample time to put up a public vote weeks or months ago. Their deadline for submitting a proposal or accepting the terms given to them passed five days ago. They initially sent "wrong papers" to the participants of the EU ministers' meetings. Now the referendum. At this point, they are just playing time.
- DominikR 11y ago
  They are now for the first time in power and only for 5 months. Of course they needed time to conduct negotiations to see, if there is a way to end austerity on the basis of a mutual agreement with the EU institutions. Apparently this didn't work out (ultimatum by the EU), but how could they find out without at least trying to negotiate with the EU. He wasn't voted into power to leave the Eurozone, he was voted into power to end austerity and stay in the Eurozone. When should he have called for a referendum? After the first negative response they received from the EU? This would be silly. Of course they tried to negotiate and to explore all possibilities until they either reached a mutually acceptable agreement with the EU or they received a final ultimatum.

TillE 11y ago

Given that he and his entire party are loudly supporting a "no" vote, I don't think this is the case. Their position is clear. They simply don't have a democratic mandate to accept continued, worsened austerity. Everyone basically agrees that if the vote is "yes", that will be the end of the Syriza government. If it's "no", well, then they have the support to continue rejecting austerity.

return0 11y ago
> They simply don't have a democratic mandate they were elected this January (democratically)
- konstruktor 11y ago
  They were elected based on their promise not to accept more austerity. I would agree with parent that they don't have a democratic mandate to do the opposite now, even if they could legally do it.
- vacri 11y ago
  A mandate is an authorisation to do something, not an open-ended power. The rest of that quoteed phrase references what the mandate was about - they were elected on a campaign to do the opposite course of action.
  - return0 11y ago
    Then whats the point of the referendum. If they insist on non-austerity, make a plan outside the euro.
rsp1984 11y ago
I don't understand your point. Their democratic mandate is to say no to Trioka terms. Great. That's what they did and it resulted in the situation we have now. If they continue down the path of their mandate it will result in Greece exiting the Eurozone. This should not be a surprise to anyone. The other choice is to accept Troika terms, keep Greece in the Eurozone, and potentially lose face. In any case it is a situation that the Tsipras government caused, a situation that was predictable and a situation that they should have to deal with and stand by themselves. The whole point of having a government is that the people should not be faced with having to make these kinds of decisions that involve many complexities and have long-ranging consequences. Calling in a referendum for precisely these decisions is a declaration of incompetence.

DominikR 11y ago

> What is actually happening here is that Tsipras is simply trying to save face. I disagree with you. He was democratically voted into power 5 months ago to end austerity, but NOT to leave the Euro currency or the EU. Now that he came to the conclusion that leaving the Euro currency is inevitable if Greece wants to end austerity he does the right thing any person in power should do: He lets the population decide thereby giving him a mandate to either continue austerity or leave the Euro currency, both of which he didn't get the mandate for when he was voted into power.

rsp1984 11y ago
For everybody who's not been living under a rock for the last five years it was, and is, obvious that the choice is either to accept Troika terms or to leave the Eurozone. The current situation can't be a surprise for anyone, especially not for the ones who voted for Tsipras. Tripras promised to end austerity without having to leave the EU. This was completely illusory in the first place. Politicians overpromise and fail, that's part of the game. The right response is to either be a man and continue to fight for the values you believe in or to admit defeat and step down. But you can't call in referendums every time the situation gets too hot, particularly not in circumstances like the current and within a couple of days. That's just ridiculous.
- DominikR 11y ago
  There is no legal way for the EU to throw Greece out of the Eurozone without them agreeing to it. Greece could default, revert back to their national currency or keep the Euro currency and STAY in the EU at the same time. He declared what he wanted to do, this of course meant that he had to convince the other EU elites which required open ended negotiations in good faith. I'm sure that no one in their right minds in Greece believed that Tsipras simply could dictate something to Brussels. Apparently negotiations failed, that can always happen, but at least he tried. Also It is never ridiculous to let the people of a country decide especially on hard questions after the facts on the ground have changed. I never understood the mindset of people who loathe on democratic decision-making. You seem to believe that there never was the possibility to reach a mutually beneficial agreement to begin with, and Greece should simply roll over and let their economy contract another 25% after it has already contracted 25% in the last years. If this were the case (I disagree) then maybe it's for the best to exit the EU and work with the Russians and Chinese on building a better future for the Greek people.