4 ms·

> Marriage has always been a government institution. Religion co-opted it for themselves at a later time. I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that r

by baddox 11y ago

> Marriage has always been a government institution. Religion co-opted it for themselves at a later time. I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states and most of the current legal distinctions associated with marriage.

trhway 11y ago
>I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states and most of the current legal distinctions associated with marriage. I suspect that marriage - a man/wife pairing (or 1-to-N grouping) recognized by the tribe/village with respect to all those legal distinctions related to property, children, etc... - existed long before the religion.
- caskance 11y ago
  That would require humans to have existed before religion, which is frankly quite ridiculous.
  - wj 11y ago
    I do not follow?
    - caskance 11y ago
      It's not a very long sentence. What part is confusing?
      - wj 11y ago
        It seems to me that the words 'humans' and 'religion' are inverted?
        caskance 11y ago
        Not at all. Religion was born the first time a thinking creature looked up at the sky. Most likely some pre-homo sapiens hominid.
  - Crito 11y ago
    Are we supposing religious monkeys now? It wouldn't surprise me if earlier hominids were religious as well, but to call any other possibility "quite ridiculous" is really overstepping.
    - caskance 11y ago
      Not if you've ever met a human.
  - vacri 11y ago
    You don't think that there were humans that existed before any form of codified spirituality? I'd be willing to believe that explicit ritual bonding (marriage) didn't predate religion, but find it hard to believe that the first words we uttered went along with some sort of priestly social class or referenceable rules for living.
    - gpvos 11y ago
      I don't know what the current state of research on this is, but I find it entirely plausible that rituals and social control existed before language.
      - vacri 11y ago
        Well, even creatures as low as termites and sardines exhibit mechanisms for social control - but it's not codified.
    - caskance 11y ago
      Why does it have to codified?
rodgerd 11y ago
> I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states Do you have any actual evidence? Because here in reality-land, the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Englang went from pre-history into history in 42 A.D. when the Romans came there. It didn't even have written history before that [check Wikipedia if you don't believe this]. Hardly the place to look for the origin of ancient traditions...
- ChrisLomont 11y ago
  In reality-land, marriage is far older than English legal tradition.
  - rodgerd 11y ago
    Common law is the basis for US law, and drew on pre-English tradition. Crack a liberal arts book open some time.
    - ChrisLomont 11y ago
      I'm fully aware of that, but it's irrelevant to the claim that the poster suspects "that religious marriage existed long before nation states" being disputed with "the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it". The simple fact is marriage easily predates all the English (pre or not) legal traditions. English (pre or not) traditions at best drew on the earlier concepts and practice of marriage. Crack a world history book open sometime. Or just use google.
- baddox 11y ago
  Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so, and marriage is mentioned in the Bible and plenty of Ancient Greek writings. I'm not sure if that counts as evidence here in reality-land.
mrgoldenbrown 11y ago
Humanity has definitely been around long before the current crop of judeo christian religions that our country's concept of religion is based upon. "Religion" is not a single entity, and not all religion defines marriage the same way conservative Christian sects do.
tjradcliffe 11y ago
Marriage as a practical matter exists in all societies everywhere, in the absense of any institutions of organized religion or the political state. Read any ethnography of any stone-age people from the past several hundred years and you'll find social pair-bonding without any religious or state sanction. There is frequently family sanction, but that is clearly not what you are talking about. For example: http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Pleasures-Sexual-Amazonian-People/dp/0226307433/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435384687&sr=1-2&keywords=anxious+pleasures http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Pleasures-Sexual-Amazonian-Peo... And historically in the West, marriage as a sacrement didn't get off the ground until the late Middle Ages: the Council of Verona in 1184 if memory serves. And even long after that it was still mostly a practical matter for most people.

by baddox 11y ago

trhway 11y ago

>I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states and most of the current legal distinctions associated with marriage. I suspect that marriage - a man/wife pairing (or 1-to-N grouping) recognized by the tribe/village with respect to all those legal distinctions related to property, children, etc... - existed long before the religion.

caskance 11y ago
That would require humans to have existed before religion, which is frankly quite ridiculous.
- wj 11y ago
  I do not follow?
  - caskance 11y ago
    It's not a very long sentence. What part is confusing?
    - wj 11y ago
      It seems to me that the words 'humans' and 'religion' are inverted?
      - caskance 11y ago
        Not at all. Religion was born the first time a thinking creature looked up at the sky. Most likely some pre-homo sapiens hominid.
- Crito 11y ago
  Are we supposing religious monkeys now? It wouldn't surprise me if earlier hominids were religious as well, but to call any other possibility "quite ridiculous" is really overstepping.
  - caskance 11y ago
    Not if you've ever met a human.
- vacri 11y ago
  You don't think that there were humans that existed before any form of codified spirituality? I'd be willing to believe that explicit ritual bonding (marriage) didn't predate religion, but find it hard to believe that the first words we uttered went along with some sort of priestly social class or referenceable rules for living.
  - gpvos 11y ago
    I don't know what the current state of research on this is, but I find it entirely plausible that rituals and social control existed before language.
    - vacri 11y ago
      Well, even creatures as low as termites and sardines exhibit mechanisms for social control - but it's not codified.
  - caskance 11y ago
    Why does it have to codified?

rodgerd 11y ago

> I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states Do you have any actual evidence? Because here in reality-land, the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it.

coldtea 11y ago
Englang went from pre-history into history in 42 A.D. when the Romans came there. It didn't even have written history before that [check Wikipedia if you don't believe this]. Hardly the place to look for the origin of ancient traditions...
ChrisLomont 11y ago
In reality-land, marriage is far older than English legal tradition.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  Common law is the basis for US law, and drew on pre-English tradition. Crack a liberal arts book open some time.
  - ChrisLomont 11y ago
    I'm fully aware of that, but it's irrelevant to the claim that the poster suspects "that religious marriage existed long before nation states" being disputed with "the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it". The simple fact is marriage easily predates all the English (pre or not) legal traditions. English (pre or not) traditions at best drew on the earlier concepts and practice of marriage. Crack a world history book open sometime. Or just use google.
baddox 11y ago
Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so, and marriage is mentioned in the Bible and plenty of Ancient Greek writings. I'm not sure if that counts as evidence here in reality-land.

mrgoldenbrown 11y ago

Humanity has definitely been around long before the current crop of judeo christian religions that our country's concept of religion is based upon. "Religion" is not a single entity, and not all religion defines marriage the same way conservative Christian sects do.

tjradcliffe 11y ago

Marriage as a practical matter exists in all societies everywhere, in the absense of any institutions of organized religion or the political state. Read any ethnography of any stone-age people from the past several hundred years and you'll find social pair-bonding without any religious or state sanction. There is frequently family sanction, but that is clearly not what you are talking about. For example: http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Pleasures-Sexual-Amazonian-People/dp/0226307433/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1435384687&sr=1-2&keywords=anxious+pleasures http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Pleasures-Sexual-Amazonian-Peo... And historically in the West, marriage as a sacrement didn't get off the ground until the late Middle Ages: the Council of Verona in 1184 if memory serves. And even long after that it was still mostly a practical matter for most people.