7 ms·

App Academy's (Real) Tuition Model

80 points by unimpressive 11y ago

mentat 11y ago
Reading about this, it really seems like a scam. Are people actually forking over these kinds of "tuitions"? I have a non-traditional background and learned on the job. There's no way I'd have paid anywhere near this.
lexap 11y ago
That sucks. They shouldn't have such a "policy" in the first place, and not to publish it is ethically untenable.
joeevans1000 11y ago
I'm totally baffled by the jump in tuition because of... age? lack of a degree? The latter is presumably plausible, but the first is a bit strange. The high priced bootcamps will be seen as a signifier of the tech bubble times after the bubble pops or deflates a bit. That said, I'm not against good bootcamps. But I do think 10K is a maximum ceiling for a 12 week course.
- dakmau 11y ago
  They've also built a reputation of producing quality students, and a network of employers associated with that. 18K is a fairly low price to pay for this, when you compare App Academy to the cost and time commitment of a university / community college program. As for the tuition difference with age, I presume that a higher percentage of 22 year olds and under pursue a start-up job, where salaries are lower. Hence, they make up for the difference by charging an amount upfront.
  - unimpressive 11y ago
    That's not the problem here. The problem is that they're being completely dishonest about what payment is required to participate in App Academy.
    - dakmau 11y ago
      Oh don't get me wrong, I definitely agree it's dishonest and unethical of them to not be upfront about their costs. The process they make you go through is incredibly time consuming. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised that they -would- do something like this, given their reputation, and I'm confident there must've been some sort of miscommunication. I won't make any assumptions though, until we get to hear from the other side of things.
mst 11y ago
App Academy are selling shovels, for whatever price the market will bear. I'm not impressed but I'm also entirely unsurprised.
- mr_turtle 11y ago
  I wouldn't say they are selling shovels. They could easily charge an upfront free and eliminate the risk of a student not finding a job or not paying upon placement. Changing that model, however, would have been cost prohibitive for me and I'm sure a lot of other people.
  - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
    They're better off owning the risk - it makes them a more competitive candidate for smart people with relatively little money.
nmrm2 11y ago
Many of these academies/bootcamps have a 90+% completion rate and a 90+% placement rate. Those are numbers you only get by extremely rigorous filtering on the front end; there's simply no way to admit anything except low-risk students and maintain those numbers. Changing their pricing model so that they can admit more risky students without taking on unnecessary risk isn't unreasonable at all. The alternative is to just not admit those students. Of course, they should have been more transparent.
- gbachik 11y ago
  I'm 21 and went through a programming bootcamp. In fact I dropped out of college to do it and made the highest starting salary of the bootcamp afterwords (RefactorU). Risk doesn't give you the right to hide something. It takes a lot of time and effort to go through a bootcamp screening process. For them to throw a curveball after someone has passed all the requirements is just plain unfair.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    FTR I totally agree they should have been more transparent.
  - busterarm 11y ago
    They're really slow to update their site, unfortunately. When I was accepted, they had moved offices a month or two prior but had not updated their site with the change. The $5k deposit was a recent change and not yet mentioned on the main site either. They have a lot of documentation that they're slowly bringing up to date. The curriculum is constantly in flux and being improved. The people who work on all of this are the TAs so they're spread a bit thin. It's not that they aren't being transparent - they've always been 100% honest with me and beyond fair - they're just overworked. I made lots of pull requests during my cohort to update documentation which they're really good about accepting and seemed to appreciate the help. Based on what I've seen though, this $18k up-front probably has more to do with the realities of the marketplace for junior devs right now. It seems to be slowing a lot and people sans-degree or work experience take a lot longer to find jobs. There's a glut of junior devs sans-experience in the market and many companies don't know to filter for AppAcademy students yet. The size of their cohorts also seem to be growing quickly - probably ahead of how quickly they can hire TAs and fit people in the office. Full Disclosure: I'm a recent AppAcademy grad. Also, I'm looking for work in NY if anyone is hiring. Post here with contact details and I'll follow up with you.
bananafarmer 11y ago
FWIW I was also offered a spot at AppAcademy and asked to pay an amount that was higher than anything advertised on their site. This ask took place on the phone, during a 'congratulations' call, and when I emailed back balking about the price discrepancy they said something about new pricing, yada yada. I guess not everyone balks, so they pocket what they can.
- Sheva 11y ago
  I'm Sheva, the author of the article. Mind getting in touch with me? Curious to hear a bit more about your experience.
mr_turtle 11y ago
As an App Academy grad, I'm sorry about your experience. I am unaware of a/A charging $18,000 due to your age, or your lack of a college dree, or both. I know several students in my cohort didn't have a formal degree. Also the age of my cohort varied widely - young and old. Was the $18k to be charged up front, upon finding a job, or within a year of you not finding a job? For me I was unaware of deposit increased from $3,000 to $5,000 which they only told me during one of the interviews. I know there are some hoops to jump through, but I don't think it's as bad as you make it to be. The initial coding challenge can be taken almost immediately and my live coding challenge was scheduled a week later. I was in the conditional acceptance group where I had to do additional 'homework'. If you were in that boat, that sucks. ~ The policy does sound a little dubious. I would be very suprised if it was a blanket policy.
- busterarm 11y ago
  You wouldn't happen to know of anyone looking for recent a/A grads to join their teams, would you?
noahtkoch 11y ago
20 y/o App Academy grad here. I was 19 when I finished the program. First, I must say the program was totally worth it. This is true that you have to pay regardless after the program. It really blows. The fee was also quite a bit lower when I went (I think it was 12,000, 3k upfront) back when it was just 9 weeks. It was explained to me that people under 22 showed more of risk as they might go back to college since their peers are still in college. It sucks that they weren't more transparent, but I found it to be completely worth it. Additionally, There was more than one occasion I was late on payments and they were always lenient on my payment dates without ever charing me interest. Should they be more transparent? Absolutely, then and now. But I found it to be totally worth it.
- busterarm 11y ago
  You wouldn't happen to know of anyone looking for recent a/A grads to join their teams, would you?
dmeb 11y ago
Disclaimer: I went to App Academy summer of 2014. I paid ~$14,000 up front as Canadians didn't qualify for the tuition deferment (an eminently reasonable restriction, work visas are far from a sure thing). I had degrees in non-cs STEM fields and CS coursework which allowed me to fit into a TN visa category, and I'm currently happily employed in SF. I'm disappointed in App Academy for this omission - they should be better than this. That said, some perspective: They have placed 400(?) people in the SF tech market through this tuition deferment scheme. Many of those hundreds didn't have the $10k-$18k up front needed for a bootcamp. Many of those people, myself included, consider attending App Academy a life-changing event. Easily the single most useful stretch of three months I've spent over the course of my twenties. Their system of tuition deferment + rent free living on the floor in SOMA was unprecedented and a large gamble on their part. I'm very likely over-reacting given my strong feelings of gratitude to the school, but there's an under-current of entitlement in these posts I find objectionable. They should have made certain that their complete tuition policy was clear, accurate, and very visible. That said, the harm you incurred was learning some minimal amount of ruby and and engaging in some screen shares. These are both skills that will be useful in any further interaction you have with web development, either bootcamp applications or job interviews. Respectfully, you have a long road ahead of you and much more potential unfairness. Your experience with them does tarnish my view of App Academy slightly. However, the counter factual of no App Academy is a world in which literally hundreds of people would have been unable to pursue careers they find both financially and personally rewarding. Relative to that incredible accomplishment, this seems less damning.
- mr_turtle 11y ago
  + 1 - They let and would let as many students live on site free of charge in the most expensive rental market in the US. I am certain all students from out of town or out of state are forever grateful for just this. Rent in SF/SOMA can easily top $2,000. - Also agree that a/A changed my life and the best three month investment I've ever made. Likewise many of my peers feel the same way.
  - busterarm 11y ago
    They no longer can do the live on site thing. They're going for some sort of accreditation and that involves their TAs obtaining teaching credentials and not allowing people to live on site unless they have a dormitory, which carries all sorts of additional restrictions.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
lsiebert 11y ago
I was considering App Academy; Now, not so much. Honestly, I wish getting a second Bachelor's degree was easier/cheaper in California. I could go back, get a CS degree (i'd probably have to review some of calculus, but I could rock the CS classes easily).
dmeb 11y ago
34 yelp reviews from App Academy students. http://www.yelp.com/biz/app-academy-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/app-academy-san-francisco Is it possible to remove negative reviews? They're uniformly 5 stars. I'm actually surprised that there aren't any negative reviews. I would've expected reviewers to be primarily those with strong feelings, either positive or negative. Another data point, Hack Reactor, with 131 reviews, all 5 stars: http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco I get that bootcamps are polarizing, but surely those skeptical should at least do some cursory googling to get a sense of the distribution of people's experience who actually go through these programs. I google either of these bootcamps and in the first two hits I get links to review sites with dozens of detailed reviews filled with effusive praise and particulars on the programs.
- busterarm 11y ago
  a/A and Hack Reactor are outliers in the market, IMO. Flatiron School and Dev Bootcamp might also be okay. Even though I might have misgivings about GA, I have a friend who works there and know several employed grads as well who loved it. There are many others in this market that I would run the other way from, but different programs work for different people. There's a review site that's helpful in researching these programs here: https://www.coursereport.com/ https://www.coursereport.com/ There are some negative reviews for most programs here.

80 points by unimpressive 11y ago

Reading about this, it really seems like a scam. Are people actually forking over these kinds of "tuitions"? I have a non-traditional background and learned on the job. There's no way I'd have paid anywhere near this.

lexap 11y ago

That sucks. They shouldn't have such a "policy" in the first place, and not to publish it is ethically untenable.

joeevans1000 11y ago

I'm totally baffled by the jump in tuition because of... age? lack of a degree? The latter is presumably plausible, but the first is a bit strange. The high priced bootcamps will be seen as a signifier of the tech bubble times after the bubble pops or deflates a bit. That said, I'm not against good bootcamps. But I do think 10K is a maximum ceiling for a 12 week course.

dakmau 11y ago
They've also built a reputation of producing quality students, and a network of employers associated with that. 18K is a fairly low price to pay for this, when you compare App Academy to the cost and time commitment of a university / community college program. As for the tuition difference with age, I presume that a higher percentage of 22 year olds and under pursue a start-up job, where salaries are lower. Hence, they make up for the difference by charging an amount upfront.
- unimpressive 11y ago
  That's not the problem here. The problem is that they're being completely dishonest about what payment is required to participate in App Academy.
  - dakmau 11y ago
    Oh don't get me wrong, I definitely agree it's dishonest and unethical of them to not be upfront about their costs. The process they make you go through is incredibly time consuming. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised that they -would- do something like this, given their reputation, and I'm confident there must've been some sort of miscommunication. I won't make any assumptions though, until we get to hear from the other side of things.

mst 11y ago

App Academy are selling shovels, for whatever price the market will bear. I'm not impressed but I'm also entirely unsurprised.

mr_turtle 11y ago
I wouldn't say they are selling shovels. They could easily charge an upfront free and eliminate the risk of a student not finding a job or not paying upon placement. Changing that model, however, would have been cost prohibitive for me and I'm sure a lot of other people.
- ThrustVectoring 11y ago
  They're better off owning the risk - it makes them a more competitive candidate for smart people with relatively little money.

nmrm2 11y ago

Many of these academies/bootcamps have a 90+% completion rate and a 90+% placement rate. Those are numbers you only get by extremely rigorous filtering on the front end; there's simply no way to admit anything except low-risk students and maintain those numbers. Changing their pricing model so that they can admit more risky students without taking on unnecessary risk isn't unreasonable at all. The alternative is to just not admit those students. Of course, they should have been more transparent.

gbachik 11y ago
I'm 21 and went through a programming bootcamp. In fact I dropped out of college to do it and made the highest starting salary of the bootcamp afterwords (RefactorU). Risk doesn't give you the right to hide something. It takes a lot of time and effort to go through a bootcamp screening process. For them to throw a curveball after someone has passed all the requirements is just plain unfair.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  FTR I totally agree they should have been more transparent.
- busterarm 11y ago
  They're really slow to update their site, unfortunately. When I was accepted, they had moved offices a month or two prior but had not updated their site with the change. The $5k deposit was a recent change and not yet mentioned on the main site either. They have a lot of documentation that they're slowly bringing up to date. The curriculum is constantly in flux and being improved. The people who work on all of this are the TAs so they're spread a bit thin. It's not that they aren't being transparent - they've always been 100% honest with me and beyond fair - they're just overworked. I made lots of pull requests during my cohort to update documentation which they're really good about accepting and seemed to appreciate the help. Based on what I've seen though, this $18k up-front probably has more to do with the realities of the marketplace for junior devs right now. It seems to be slowing a lot and people sans-degree or work experience take a lot longer to find jobs. There's a glut of junior devs sans-experience in the market and many companies don't know to filter for AppAcademy students yet. The size of their cohorts also seem to be growing quickly - probably ahead of how quickly they can hire TAs and fit people in the office. Full Disclosure: I'm a recent AppAcademy grad. Also, I'm looking for work in NY if anyone is hiring. Post here with contact details and I'll follow up with you.

bananafarmer 11y ago

FWIW I was also offered a spot at AppAcademy and asked to pay an amount that was higher than anything advertised on their site. This ask took place on the phone, during a 'congratulations' call, and when I emailed back balking about the price discrepancy they said something about new pricing, yada yada. I guess not everyone balks, so they pocket what they can.

Sheva 11y ago
I'm Sheva, the author of the article. Mind getting in touch with me? Curious to hear a bit more about your experience.

mr_turtle 11y ago

As an App Academy grad, I'm sorry about your experience. I am unaware of a/A charging $18,000 due to your age, or your lack of a college dree, or both. I know several students in my cohort didn't have a formal degree. Also the age of my cohort varied widely - young and old. Was the $18k to be charged up front, upon finding a job, or within a year of you not finding a job? For me I was unaware of deposit increased from $3,000 to $5,000 which they only told me during one of the interviews. I know there are some hoops to jump through, but I don't think it's as bad as you make it to be. The initial coding challenge can be taken almost immediately and my live coding challenge was scheduled a week later. I was in the conditional acceptance group where I had to do additional 'homework'. If you were in that boat, that sucks. ~ The policy does sound a little dubious. I would be very suprised if it was a blanket policy.

busterarm 11y ago
You wouldn't happen to know of anyone looking for recent a/A grads to join their teams, would you?

noahtkoch 11y ago

20 y/o App Academy grad here. I was 19 when I finished the program. First, I must say the program was totally worth it. This is true that you have to pay regardless after the program. It really blows. The fee was also quite a bit lower when I went (I think it was 12,000, 3k upfront) back when it was just 9 weeks. It was explained to me that people under 22 showed more of risk as they might go back to college since their peers are still in college. It sucks that they weren't more transparent, but I found it to be completely worth it. Additionally, There was more than one occasion I was late on payments and they were always lenient on my payment dates without ever charing me interest. Should they be more transparent? Absolutely, then and now. But I found it to be totally worth it.

busterarm 11y ago
You wouldn't happen to know of anyone looking for recent a/A grads to join their teams, would you?

dmeb 11y ago

Disclaimer: I went to App Academy summer of 2014. I paid ~$14,000 up front as Canadians didn't qualify for the tuition deferment (an eminently reasonable restriction, work visas are far from a sure thing). I had degrees in non-cs STEM fields and CS coursework which allowed me to fit into a TN visa category, and I'm currently happily employed in SF. I'm disappointed in App Academy for this omission - they should be better than this. That said, some perspective: They have placed 400(?) people in the SF tech market through this tuition deferment scheme. Many of those hundreds didn't have the $10k-$18k up front needed for a bootcamp. Many of those people, myself included, consider attending App Academy a life-changing event. Easily the single most useful stretch of three months I've spent over the course of my twenties. Their system of tuition deferment + rent free living on the floor in SOMA was unprecedented and a large gamble on their part. I'm very likely over-reacting given my strong feelings of gratitude to the school, but there's an under-current of entitlement in these posts I find objectionable. They should have made certain that their complete tuition policy was clear, accurate, and very visible. That said, the harm you incurred was learning some minimal amount of ruby and and engaging in some screen shares. These are both skills that will be useful in any further interaction you have with web development, either bootcamp applications or job interviews. Respectfully, you have a long road ahead of you and much more potential unfairness. Your experience with them does tarnish my view of App Academy slightly. However, the counter factual of no App Academy is a world in which literally hundreds of people would have been unable to pursue careers they find both financially and personally rewarding. Relative to that incredible accomplishment, this seems less damning.

mr_turtle 11y ago
+ 1 - They let and would let as many students live on site free of charge in the most expensive rental market in the US. I am certain all students from out of town or out of state are forever grateful for just this. Rent in SF/SOMA can easily top $2,000. - Also agree that a/A changed my life and the best three month investment I've ever made. Likewise many of my peers feel the same way.
- busterarm 11y ago
  They no longer can do the live on site thing. They're going for some sort of accreditation and that involves their TAs obtaining teaching credentials and not allowing people to live on site unless they have a dormitory, which carries all sorts of additional restrictions.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

lsiebert 11y ago

I was considering App Academy; Now, not so much. Honestly, I wish getting a second Bachelor's degree was easier/cheaper in California. I could go back, get a CS degree (i'd probably have to review some of calculus, but I could rock the CS classes easily).

dmeb 11y ago

34 yelp reviews from App Academy students. http://www.yelp.com/biz/app-academy-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/app-academy-san-francisco Is it possible to remove negative reviews? They're uniformly 5 stars. I'm actually surprised that there aren't any negative reviews. I would've expected reviewers to be primarily those with strong feelings, either positive or negative. Another data point, Hack Reactor, with 131 reviews, all 5 stars: http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco I get that bootcamps are polarizing, but surely those skeptical should at least do some cursory googling to get a sense of the distribution of people's experience who actually go through these programs. I google either of these bootcamps and in the first two hits I get links to review sites with dozens of detailed reviews filled with effusive praise and particulars on the programs.

busterarm 11y ago
a/A and Hack Reactor are outliers in the market, IMO. Flatiron School and Dev Bootcamp might also be okay. Even though I might have misgivings about GA, I have a friend who works there and know several employed grads as well who loved it. There are many others in this market that I would run the other way from, but different programs work for different people. There's a review site that's helpful in researching these programs here: https://www.coursereport.com/ https://www.coursereport.com/ There are some negative reviews for most programs here.