3 ms·

While YOU may not see the flag as a racist symbol, I assure you that others do. The general term is called dog-whistle politics. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/

While YOU may not see the flag as a racist symbol, I assure you that others do. The general term is called dog-whistle politics. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

comrh 11y ago
Surely dog-whistle politics doesn't apply to Ultimate General: Gettysburg though. The flag is there for purely historical reasons. Obviously putting it on your bumper or flying it above your state capital is a completely different story.
screwedup 11y ago
I don't think PaulHoule was saying it isn't a racist symbol.
knodi123 11y ago
you seriously think a civil war game, or a historical documentary, are practicing dog whistle politics? Just because that's a thing that occurs doesn't mean that it's everywhere it could possibly be.
- ryanobjc 11y ago
  Don't deflect - lets talk only about civil war game. Forget documentaries they aren't part of the argument, they are just tossed in there for lazy argumentation sakes. The issue is a game is trivially a propaganda piece and even if people are painting it as a historical thing, it is also a contemporary piece of art that speaks to people in different languages depending on who is listening.
  - knodi123 11y ago
    I was addressing the issue of dog whistle politics. Are you seriously saying that civil war games are being marketed intentionally to help people fantasize about successfully defending the institution of slavery? That seems a little like a paranoid conspiracy theory.
- justizin 11y ago
  Here's a question to that end: Can you play as the Confederate army? I can certainly see a game that is a valuable teaching tool also being joyfully used by someone to imagine the south rising again, every day after working as a TSA agent. While I wouldn't really hold the developer of such a game morally responsible, I think what people are missing out on here is that Apple doesn't want to participate in distributing a game that could be a PR disaster for them. This actually fits rather well into Steve Jobs', "Freedom from porn" notion, that essentially the opportunity to play a civil war reenactment as the Confederate army is more or less equal to racist war porn. In leftist politics, Apple often gets to stand in for the entire computer industry, so let's say this game were available on all platforms, at some point, someone is going to say, "And look at Apple, THEY still distribute video games that let people play as the confederate army!" Even if you try to explain to a person with this position that, well, Google, Microsoft, Sony, and Valve all also distribute this game, you're unlikely to dent their argument. In this way, Apple's brand is constantly being eroded in political conversations that have little to do with them, and they may have some foresight that continuing to distribute this game would blow up in their face. OR, even though all of that is true, they will decide to reverse this because it's a historically accurate teaching tool. Time will tell.
zxcvcxz 11y ago
And many see the swastika as a Buddhist symbol while others see it as a Nazi symbol. But of course, you're just here to push a political agenda and paint anyone who doesn't agree as either stupid or racist.
Jgrubb 11y ago
Not sure if you read the article or not, but you are correct that this is still a racist symbol to many, however if it also happens to be a piece of actual history. It's usage outside of something history related is pretty much always the former, but it's usage in this particular game is clearly the latter.
jjtheblunt 11y ago
Does the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution not "guarantee" to individual citizens freedom of speech and freedom of press, so that individuals (not collections of them such as states) can say "confederate flag" and display the confederate flag as much as they want? I mean, if they are doing so to be hateful, they can do that, and, in doing so, they declare themselves unsavory, to say the least.
- mcphage 11y ago
  > Does the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution not "guarantee" to individual citizens freedom of speech and freedom of press Freedom from the government curtailing their speech, not freedom from other parties doing so. So, in this case: no.
ralmidani 11y ago
He's not saying it's not a racist symbol. He's saying games and movies depicting it are not racist.
pawn 11y ago
I don't believe he was saying anything regarding whether or not he believes it is a racist symbol. He said, "I think games, documentaries and such are not showing the flag to be racist." Can a documentary portray the Civil War without automatically favoring the Confederates? Can a game allow you to play for either side? In either case, does it not make sense to show the Confederate flag to be more authentic? It's part of history, and I'm extremely wary of the idea of leaving out history because it's got a "bad guy".
- ryanobjc 11y ago
  except the issue at hand is modern games in the iOS app store, not documentary. Banning the flag is about contemporary usage, not historical perspective.
k_roy 11y ago
Pretending like it doesn't exist doesn't serve anyone though. Especially when approached from a historical context, I think it's a disservice to pretend like it never happened.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
PaulHoule 11y ago
I think the flag is a racist symbol and I don't think it should flying above a state capitol.

comrh 11y ago

Surely dog-whistle politics doesn't apply to Ultimate General: Gettysburg though. The flag is there for purely historical reasons. Obviously putting it on your bumper or flying it above your state capital is a completely different story.

screwedup 11y ago

I don't think PaulHoule was saying it isn't a racist symbol.

knodi123 11y ago

you seriously think a civil war game, or a historical documentary, are practicing dog whistle politics? Just because that's a thing that occurs doesn't mean that it's everywhere it could possibly be.

ryanobjc 11y ago
Don't deflect - lets talk only about civil war game. Forget documentaries they aren't part of the argument, they are just tossed in there for lazy argumentation sakes. The issue is a game is trivially a propaganda piece and even if people are painting it as a historical thing, it is also a contemporary piece of art that speaks to people in different languages depending on who is listening.
- knodi123 11y ago
  I was addressing the issue of dog whistle politics. Are you seriously saying that civil war games are being marketed intentionally to help people fantasize about successfully defending the institution of slavery? That seems a little like a paranoid conspiracy theory.
justizin 11y ago
Here's a question to that end: Can you play as the Confederate army? I can certainly see a game that is a valuable teaching tool also being joyfully used by someone to imagine the south rising again, every day after working as a TSA agent. While I wouldn't really hold the developer of such a game morally responsible, I think what people are missing out on here is that Apple doesn't want to participate in distributing a game that could be a PR disaster for them. This actually fits rather well into Steve Jobs', "Freedom from porn" notion, that essentially the opportunity to play a civil war reenactment as the Confederate army is more or less equal to racist war porn. In leftist politics, Apple often gets to stand in for the entire computer industry, so let's say this game were available on all platforms, at some point, someone is going to say, "And look at Apple, THEY still distribute video games that let people play as the confederate army!" Even if you try to explain to a person with this position that, well, Google, Microsoft, Sony, and Valve all also distribute this game, you're unlikely to dent their argument. In this way, Apple's brand is constantly being eroded in political conversations that have little to do with them, and they may have some foresight that continuing to distribute this game would blow up in their face. OR, even though all of that is true, they will decide to reverse this because it's a historically accurate teaching tool. Time will tell.

zxcvcxz 11y ago

And many see the swastika as a Buddhist symbol while others see it as a Nazi symbol. But of course, you're just here to push a political agenda and paint anyone who doesn't agree as either stupid or racist.

Jgrubb 11y ago

Not sure if you read the article or not, but you are correct that this is still a racist symbol to many, however if it also happens to be a piece of actual history. It's usage outside of something history related is pretty much always the former, but it's usage in this particular game is clearly the latter.

jjtheblunt 11y ago

Does the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution not "guarantee" to individual citizens freedom of speech and freedom of press, so that individuals (not collections of them such as states) can say "confederate flag" and display the confederate flag as much as they want? I mean, if they are doing so to be hateful, they can do that, and, in doing so, they declare themselves unsavory, to say the least.

mcphage 11y ago
> Does the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution not "guarantee" to individual citizens freedom of speech and freedom of press Freedom from the government curtailing their speech, not freedom from other parties doing so. So, in this case: no.

ralmidani 11y ago

He's not saying it's not a racist symbol. He's saying games and movies depicting it are not racist.

pawn 11y ago

I don't believe he was saying anything regarding whether or not he believes it is a racist symbol. He said, "I think games, documentaries and such are not showing the flag to be racist." Can a documentary portray the Civil War without automatically favoring the Confederates? Can a game allow you to play for either side? In either case, does it not make sense to show the Confederate flag to be more authentic? It's part of history, and I'm extremely wary of the idea of leaving out history because it's got a "bad guy".

ryanobjc 11y ago
except the issue at hand is modern games in the iOS app store, not documentary. Banning the flag is about contemporary usage, not historical perspective.

k_roy 11y ago

Pretending like it doesn't exist doesn't serve anyone though. Especially when approached from a historical context, I think it's a disservice to pretend like it never happened.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

PaulHoule 11y ago

I think the flag is a racist symbol and I don't think it should flying above a state capitol.