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I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it

I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some research before making such blanket statements. I have some people close to me who once wore t-shirts that had elements of the flag on them. If I were to ask them why they wore it, they would not answer or think anything along the lines of "overt racism." They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. Symbols are what we make them to be. As someone in the design world I am very aware of this. Perhaps your experience is that everyone around you who sports the flag is an overt racist, but that hasn't been the experience for me. Do I still think it's misguided to use the flag? Personally, yes. But I think to paint the issue with such a broad brush doesn't do anyone any good. Same thing about those "who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery" - I think there's a solid case to be made for that among the "power brokers", but as is the case in history, things were much more nuanced, particularly for the rank and file. Search around a bit for why your average non-slave-owning Southerner signed up for the war, or even look at a guy like Robert E. Lee. If you're interested in the nuances of the secession question, check out http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 - lots of good points on either end of the spectrum. TL;DR: History is complex, be careful about blanket statements.

yequalsx 11y ago
I specifically mentioned the power brokers because their words are known. I quoted some of their words. As such I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone in the South at that time. The flag at its inception represents something overtly racist. People used it to rally others when opposing the Civil Rights Act and desegregation. Now they use the coded language of 'Southern pride' and 'Southern heritage'. In much the same way that the famous Southern Strategy of the Republican party in the 80s used coded language to talk about race. Welfare queens, ghetto kids, etc. Can you find a knowledgable person who flies that flag who isn't a racist? Knowledgable about what the declarations of secession actually say? I haven't encountered such people. I met a lot of people in the South who I never thought of being racists. But their racism was subtle and underneath their outward appearance. At my first job the manager was a very nice gentleman. Then one day he gave me a promotion and said to me, "I'm giving you this promotion because all we have here are a bunch of sorry niggers." I'm white. I had many other such encounters. In secret when others weren't around, if you gained enough confidence, it came out.
yequalsx 11y ago
The link you provided did not talk about the reasons for secession. It was about the legality of it from an American Constitutional perspective. Look at the top rated comment of this discussion on history.stackexchange.com. [1] Secession was about preservation of slavery. I don't think there exists a cogent contrary argument. [1] http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-southern-states-secede-from-the-u-s http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-s...
- Brendinooo 11y ago
  I think I agree with you on this point. The last answer attempts to provide some nuance but even at the root of those is...slavery. I also think that I've seen a lot of rhetoric thrown around online and this is the first time I posted about it, so perhaps I was attempting to speak to the "flag symbolizes treason too" argument that you never made.
nmrm2 11y ago
> They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. I know what you're saying, having grown up in the non-deep south. However, I disagree with you. The flag makes a lot of people very uncomfortable (and for very good reasons). Placing one's sense of self-importance/rebellion above other's feelings of safety and belonging in a community that has historically enslaved and murdered them shows a profound lack of sympathy. Punk kids might just be ignorant of that reality, but grown adults should and do know better. For that reason, I absolutely believe any adult who flies the flag is being racist in their wilful neglect of the traumatizing history it rightfully represents, in the same sense that all holocaust deniers are anti-Semitic regardless of whether they would perpetuate another holocaust. Some things really are black and white. Flying a symbol of racial terrorism is one of them.
- justizin 11y ago
  Agree with what you say, also take issue with the previous commenter's notion: > Symbols are what we make them to be. I think this is a really dangerous point of view. There are certainly some symbols with wiggle room, but I would argue that symbols transcend language by encoding meaning.
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yequalsx 11y ago

I specifically mentioned the power brokers because their words are known. I quoted some of their words. As such I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone in the South at that time. The flag at its inception represents something overtly racist. People used it to rally others when opposing the Civil Rights Act and desegregation. Now they use the coded language of 'Southern pride' and 'Southern heritage'. In much the same way that the famous Southern Strategy of the Republican party in the 80s used coded language to talk about race. Welfare queens, ghetto kids, etc. Can you find a knowledgable person who flies that flag who isn't a racist? Knowledgable about what the declarations of secession actually say? I haven't encountered such people. I met a lot of people in the South who I never thought of being racists. But their racism was subtle and underneath their outward appearance. At my first job the manager was a very nice gentleman. Then one day he gave me a promotion and said to me, "I'm giving you this promotion because all we have here are a bunch of sorry niggers." I'm white. I had many other such encounters. In secret when others weren't around, if you gained enough confidence, it came out.

yequalsx 11y ago

The link you provided did not talk about the reasons for secession. It was about the legality of it from an American Constitutional perspective. Look at the top rated comment of this discussion on history.stackexchange.com. [1] Secession was about preservation of slavery. I don't think there exists a cogent contrary argument. [1] http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-southern-states-secede-from-the-u-s http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-s...

Brendinooo 11y ago
I think I agree with you on this point. The last answer attempts to provide some nuance but even at the root of those is...slavery. I also think that I've seen a lot of rhetoric thrown around online and this is the first time I posted about it, so perhaps I was attempting to speak to the "flag symbolizes treason too" argument that you never made.

nmrm2 11y ago

> They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. I know what you're saying, having grown up in the non-deep south. However, I disagree with you. The flag makes a lot of people very uncomfortable (and for very good reasons). Placing one's sense of self-importance/rebellion above other's feelings of safety and belonging in a community that has historically enslaved and murdered them shows a profound lack of sympathy. Punk kids might just be ignorant of that reality, but grown adults should and do know better. For that reason, I absolutely believe any adult who flies the flag is being racist in their wilful neglect of the traumatizing history it rightfully represents, in the same sense that all holocaust deniers are anti-Semitic regardless of whether they would perpetuate another holocaust. Some things really are black and white. Flying a symbol of racial terrorism is one of them.

justizin 11y ago
Agree with what you say, also take issue with the previous commenter's notion: > Symbols are what we make them to be. I think this is a really dangerous point of view. There are certainly some symbols with wiggle room, but I would argue that symbols transcend language by encoding meaning.

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