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"whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flows -- particularly, o

"whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flows -- particularly, of course, African Americans." If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. Many in the south had relatives that fought and died for the confederacy. It means something to them, but this doesn't seem to matter to anyone. "surely does not exist for the express purpose of cultivating terrorism" The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery. Just like Islam representing terrorism, it's just one of the many facets. I would also like to point out that Islam does represent the subjugation of women (even if the the people part of the religion don't see it this way). Any woman involved in the religion has to keep their head covered (some, their entire body) and in pretty much all Islamic countries, the laws are heavily biased toward men. Homosexuality is also illegal and can mean jail time. "And, more to the point, the public reaction simply reflects, I think, widespread agreement that this is the case." A small, vocal, minority of people agree (like in most things). We have had the confederate flag around for many, many years. I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed. If it was really a huge issue, why the outcry now? And why are we blaming an entire culture for the actions of one person?

pdabbadabba 11y ago
> If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended? > The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery. The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery, the flag in question is the symbol of the Confederacy. (Though I should have said "primary purpose" not "sole purpose.") > Any woman involved in the religion has to keep their head covered This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their heads. (Also, while I recognize that the discriminatory attitudes of many Muslims towards women run deeper than merely having them cover their heads, it's pretty funny that you're comparing this to slavery.) And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery. > I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed. Google it. This is blatantly false. (I agree that moves like Apple's decision today go too far, and may indeed be unprecedented. But certainly the general controversy is not at all new.)
- Torgo 11y ago
  >What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. This works equally in the other direction. The reason a symbol was originally created is not the final word on what it means today to large groups of people. For many people that flag means "the American South is a distinctive culture." I don't really care about the flag at all but I have seen people using it in various ways for years without any sort of racist intent and it's pretty crap to just write them off as racists or that they should have retroactively "known better" after this sudden, dramatic social pivot.
- paulhauggis 11y ago
  "The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended?" If it's turned a specific way, it is the Nazi symbol. In Asia for instance (where I lived and studied for 5+ years), you will see the symbol all over the place. It is still a Buddhist peace sign in many other parts of the world and in fact, I have purchased multiple items online (and on Amazon) with the symbol on it. I know plenty of people that purchase Chinese new year decorations and put them in their car with that symbol. So, your example is flawed. "The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery" No it didn't. It existed to promote states' rights. Slavery is one of those rights (and the one brought up the most). "This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their head" You also see plenty of people with the confederate flag that do not support slavery. This is my point. "And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery." I don't see people with confederate flags creating laws that force African-americans into slavery. We do have examples of countries that force women to be partially covered (and in some instances, completely covered) and other extremely harsh laws like stoning if a woman gets raped (this is a real law btw.). But it gets the magic pass, even though in some instances, supports the most vile and terrible human behavior. So you support symbols of a religion that do in fact put people into slavery, by law. But you don't support a symbol that has done nothing of the sort for 100+ years. "Google it. This is blatantly false." This is the first time I've seen it on CNN or any main stream news site (and I read lots of news every day) and it was only after this incident that government officials needed to do anything about it. It must not have been a big deal before this incident. *edit: This is why HN group think (and group think everywhere) is dangerous. I am trying to have an open an honest discussion about politics and I am silenced immediately.
__z 11y ago
> I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Well, yeah, people did peep up. Georgia's flag had the Confederate battle flag on it from 1956–2001. We can presume that people gave a shit enough to change it. Furthermore the Confederate flag used to fly over the State House (I believe, or Capitol Building, can't recall exactly). Moving it next to the Civil War monument was a compromise. >Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed. This is beyond silly. "North Carolina taking down confederate flag from old capitol buliding[sic]" March 29, 2013 http://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-taking-down-confederate-flag-from-old-capitol-buliding/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-taking-down-confe... " A Confederate battle flag hung inside the old North Carolina State Capitol last week to mark the sesquicentennial of the Civil War is being taken down after civil rights leaders raised concerns." "SC marchers demand removal of Confederate battle flag" January 20, 2014 http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article13835036.html http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article1383... "Mary Ann Williams has been bringing her church youth group to the King Day at the Dome rally for 10 years, and, every year, they always sit in the same spot: by the statue of Benjamin Tillman." "Most South Carolina Governor Candidates Stand Firm On Flying Confederate Flag" 05/31/2010 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/confederate-flag-south-ca_n_595256.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/confederate-flag-so... "Still, it raises ire. There's an ongoing boycott of the state by the NAACP because of the flag and the NCAA refuses to bring tournaments here because of it. Football coach Steve Spurrier has said he doesn't understand why it flies where it is." "Va. city bans public Confederate flag displays" September 2, 2011 http://www.cbsnews.com/news/va-city-bans-public-confederate-flag-displays/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/va-city-bans-public-confederate-... "But many speakers complained that the flag was an offensive, divisive symbol of the South's history of slavery and shouldn't be endorsed by the city of 7,000 people."
- paulhauggis 11y ago
  "This is beyond silly." These are all a minority group of people that didn't like the flag. It didn't hit the main stream until this incident...ie: nobody cared.
  - 11y ago

pdabbadabba 11y ago

> If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended? > The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery. The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery, the flag in question is the symbol of the Confederacy. (Though I should have said "primary purpose" not "sole purpose.") > Any woman involved in the religion has to keep their head covered This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their heads. (Also, while I recognize that the discriminatory attitudes of many Muslims towards women run deeper than merely having them cover their heads, it's pretty funny that you're comparing this to slavery.) And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery. > I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed. Google it. This is blatantly false. (I agree that moves like Apple's decision today go too far, and may indeed be unprecedented. But certainly the general controversy is not at all new.)

Torgo 11y ago
>What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. This works equally in the other direction. The reason a symbol was originally created is not the final word on what it means today to large groups of people. For many people that flag means "the American South is a distinctive culture." I don't really care about the flag at all but I have seen people using it in various ways for years without any sort of racist intent and it's pretty crap to just write them off as racists or that they should have retroactively "known better" after this sudden, dramatic social pivot.
paulhauggis 11y ago
"The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended?" If it's turned a specific way, it is the Nazi symbol. In Asia for instance (where I lived and studied for 5+ years), you will see the symbol all over the place. It is still a Buddhist peace sign in many other parts of the world and in fact, I have purchased multiple items online (and on Amazon) with the symbol on it. I know plenty of people that purchase Chinese new year decorations and put them in their car with that symbol. So, your example is flawed. "The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery" No it didn't. It existed to promote states' rights. Slavery is one of those rights (and the one brought up the most). "This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their head" You also see plenty of people with the confederate flag that do not support slavery. This is my point. "And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery." I don't see people with confederate flags creating laws that force African-americans into slavery. We do have examples of countries that force women to be partially covered (and in some instances, completely covered) and other extremely harsh laws like stoning if a woman gets raped (this is a real law btw.). But it gets the magic pass, even though in some instances, supports the most vile and terrible human behavior. So you support symbols of a religion that do in fact put people into slavery, by law. But you don't support a symbol that has done nothing of the sort for 100+ years. "Google it. This is blatantly false." This is the first time I've seen it on CNN or any main stream news site (and I read lots of news every day) and it was only after this incident that government officials needed to do anything about it. It must not have been a big deal before this incident. *edit: This is why HN group think (and group think everywhere) is dangerous. I am trying to have an open an honest discussion about politics and I am silenced immediately.

__z 11y ago

> I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Well, yeah, people did peep up. Georgia's flag had the Confederate battle flag on it from 1956–2001. We can presume that people gave a shit enough to change it. Furthermore the Confederate flag used to fly over the State House (I believe, or Capitol Building, can't recall exactly). Moving it next to the Civil War monument was a compromise. >Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed. This is beyond silly. "North Carolina taking down confederate flag from old capitol buliding[sic]" March 29, 2013 http://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-taking-down-confederate-flag-from-old-capitol-buliding/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-taking-down-confe... " A Confederate battle flag hung inside the old North Carolina State Capitol last week to mark the sesquicentennial of the Civil War is being taken down after civil rights leaders raised concerns." "SC marchers demand removal of Confederate battle flag" January 20, 2014 http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article13835036.html http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article1383... "Mary Ann Williams has been bringing her church youth group to the King Day at the Dome rally for 10 years, and, every year, they always sit in the same spot: by the statue of Benjamin Tillman." "Most South Carolina Governor Candidates Stand Firm On Flying Confederate Flag" 05/31/2010 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/confederate-flag-south-ca_n_595256.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/confederate-flag-so... "Still, it raises ire. There's an ongoing boycott of the state by the NAACP because of the flag and the NCAA refuses to bring tournaments here because of it. Football coach Steve Spurrier has said he doesn't understand why it flies where it is." "Va. city bans public Confederate flag displays" September 2, 2011 http://www.cbsnews.com/news/va-city-bans-public-confederate-flag-displays/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/va-city-bans-public-confederate-... "But many speakers complained that the flag was an offensive, divisive symbol of the South's history of slavery and shouldn't be endorsed by the city of 7,000 people."

paulhauggis 11y ago
"This is beyond silly." These are all a minority group of people that didn't like the flag. It didn't hit the main stream until this incident...ie: nobody cared.
- 11y ago