4 ms·

These exceptions might apply to cases such as this one, whether they do is unknown and no publisher has dared to find out. In practice all games that contain f

by DasIch 11y ago

These exceptions might apply to cases such as this one, whether they do is unknown and no publisher has dared to find out. In practice all games that contain forbidden symbols get a German version in which these are replaced for example in the Wolfenstein franchise (that were not censored due to violence).

Mithaldu 11y ago
Only because the german government, like any government, is old and slow, and as of yet does not classify computer games as art, citing the interactive aspect as an enabler of contextual reinterpretation; AND because many foreign game creators simply censor themselves proactively instead of taking this matter to court. There is a very reasonable expectation of this changing at some point in the future.
- HarryHirsch 11y ago
  What the German courts are doing is enforcing the taboo on swastikas and anything else H*tler-related. I can understand why they are doing it and would like them to continue.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the usage serves the art? (I do.)
    - claudius 11y ago
      > Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? It depends on the context. The computer game should not facilitate identification with Nazism (e.g. by the player flying that flag in a RTS or being a member of it in an FPS) or downplay the disastrous results of Nazism. So potentially I would be okay with a Wolfenstein-like game where the player operates strictly against these powers/symbols, but doing this consequently in online multi-player games seems difficult.
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        > It depends on the context. Exactly that is my point. :)
- DasIch 11y ago
  The German government hasn't declared them not to be art either and as long as they haven't the real question is whether a court would consider them to be art. I think there is a very good chance that a court would consider them to be art but I don't see it coming to that anytime soon. A lot of gamers seem to be happy with versions that have these symbols replaced and everyone else simply imports them (which is as simple as ordering from amazon.co.uk instead of amazon.de). Publishers have simply no incentive to pursue this and because violence in games can be censored, publishers censor a lot of games on their own already anyway. I would not be surprised to learn that there are companies even profiting from the current situation.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    In this interview the OLJB makes it very clear what their stance is: http://www.pcgames.de/Panorama-Thema-233992/Specials/Spiele-sind-keine-Filme-Interview-mit-der-Obersten-Landesjugendbehoerde-1112254/ http://www.pcgames.de/Panorama-Thema-233992/Specials/Spiele-... (Even though, imo, the dude outright lies by stating that their interpretation of the law is what the law factually says.) Also, do note that i said at some point in the future.
    - DasIch 11y ago
      Right, I used government to broadly. Nevertheless that games are not art is the opinion of that agency. As you already mentioned there interpretation of the law is somewhat shaky here. Nevertheless to my understanding if a publisher were to get a game censored by the OLJB due to forbidden symbols, the publisher could go to court and I think they would have a decent chance at winning such a case.
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        I agree with the latter paragraph and stated so (implicitly) here in the last sentence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9778113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9778113

by DasIch 11y ago

Mithaldu 11y ago

Only because the german government, like any government, is old and slow, and as of yet does not classify computer games as art, citing the interactive aspect as an enabler of contextual reinterpretation; AND because many foreign game creators simply censor themselves proactively instead of taking this matter to court. There is a very reasonable expectation of this changing at some point in the future.

HarryHirsch 11y ago
What the German courts are doing is enforcing the taboo on swastikas and anything else H*tler-related. I can understand why they are doing it and would like them to continue.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the usage serves the art? (I do.)
  - claudius 11y ago
    > Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? It depends on the context. The computer game should not facilitate identification with Nazism (e.g. by the player flying that flag in a RTS or being a member of it in an FPS) or downplay the disastrous results of Nazism. So potentially I would be okay with a Wolfenstein-like game where the player operates strictly against these powers/symbols, but doing this consequently in online multi-player games seems difficult.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      > It depends on the context. Exactly that is my point. :)
DasIch 11y ago
The German government hasn't declared them not to be art either and as long as they haven't the real question is whether a court would consider them to be art. I think there is a very good chance that a court would consider them to be art but I don't see it coming to that anytime soon. A lot of gamers seem to be happy with versions that have these symbols replaced and everyone else simply imports them (which is as simple as ordering from amazon.co.uk instead of amazon.de). Publishers have simply no incentive to pursue this and because violence in games can be censored, publishers censor a lot of games on their own already anyway. I would not be surprised to learn that there are companies even profiting from the current situation.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  In this interview the OLJB makes it very clear what their stance is: http://www.pcgames.de/Panorama-Thema-233992/Specials/Spiele-sind-keine-Filme-Interview-mit-der-Obersten-Landesjugendbehoerde-1112254/ http://www.pcgames.de/Panorama-Thema-233992/Specials/Spiele-... (Even though, imo, the dude outright lies by stating that their interpretation of the law is what the law factually says.) Also, do note that i said at some point in the future.
  - DasIch 11y ago
    Right, I used government to broadly. Nevertheless that games are not art is the opinion of that agency. As you already mentioned there interpretation of the law is somewhat shaky here. Nevertheless to my understanding if a publisher were to get a game censored by the OLJB due to forbidden symbols, the publisher could go to court and I think they would have a decent chance at winning such a case.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      I agree with the latter paragraph and stated so (implicitly) here in the last sentence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9778113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9778113