4 ms·

"I'm glad to live in a country where I'm free to say anything, but hate speech is prosecuted." I'm going to be optimistic for the future of humanity, and assum

"I'm glad to live in a country where I'm free to say anything, but hate speech is prosecuted." I'm going to be optimistic for the future of humanity, and assume that was a (masterful) troll.

saryant 11y ago
Throwaway with a blatant canard. I'm calling false flag.
DanBC 11y ago
That's a very common sentiment in eg England. Americans tend not to realise that their free speech laws are sometimes seen as extreme in Europe. It's not surprising they used a throwaway, they already got downvoted. (It wasn't me.)
- soneil 11y ago
  The Westboro Baptist Church make an easily graspable example of this. In the US the consensus (if any) seems to be "vile, but within their rights". But they're banned from entering the UK or Canada, because we draw that line differently.
  - mike_hearn 11y ago
    More specifically, the government draws that line differently. And as civil liberties are basically never an election-defining issue, there is no pressure to change or improve things. Unfortunately this means the UK tends to be run for long periods by social conservatives, because that's the only way to get people who are also fiscal conservatives. I don't think you can draw deep conclusions about the value of free speech to people in Europe or the UK when it's so rarely debated. (British guy speaking here)
  - duncan_bayne 11y ago
    Well yes, where 'differently' means 'hypocritically'. For example, you prevent anti-jihad activists like Robert Spencer from entering the UK to speak, but you're perfectly prepared to allow pro-jihad activists to live in the UK and preach hatred of Jews, women, and non-Muslims in general. This is the problem with limits on freedom of speech - they allow people doing the limiting to ban speech they don't like, for no other reason that they don't like it.
    - keedot 11y ago
      That's a problem with politicians. Don't confuse the two.
      - duncan_bayne 11y ago
        Sorry, I don't understand. It looks (to an outsider) like politicians are selectively enforcing nebulous 'hate speech' laws to silence people they don't like. How is that not a built-in feature of hate speech laws?
        DanBC 11y ago
        I don't quite understand your complaint. You say the UK doesn't have freedom of speech; you demonstrate that by giving an example of people who do have freedom of speech; you then mention people who are banned from entering the UK, but those people are banned because there is a risk of violence; you then say that that rule is not applied to violent Islamists who live in the country. Of course it isn't! They live here, border controls are entirely the wrong tool to use for citizens. Those border controls are used to prevent many Islamists from coming to the country. And violent Islamists are dealt with using other laws. A better example of uneven freedom of speech laws might have been the protections that Jews and Christians had (under racial discrimination laws and blasphemy laws) that were not extended to Muslims.
        duncan_bayne 11y ago
        "but those people are banned because there is a risk of violence" No, they're banned because their speech is so unpopular amongst a small but violent group of the population, that the Govt. would rather they weren't allowed to speak there. That's a freedom of speech issue, not a border control issue. If the Govt. were functioning properly, it would uphold its duty to protect unpopular speech by preventing (or at least attempting to prevent) violence directed at them. Instead, they just close their doors.
soneil 11y ago
This dichotomy always exists. Very few rights are without their limits. Their front page already makes a perfect example of this: "Our manifesto is clear: we protect your right to privacy and freedom of speech". If a user wishes to 'doxx' me, my right to privacy and their freedom of speech are at odds. Which wins?
keedot 11y ago
It always surprises me when Americans think their concept of free speech is the only model. Much, if not most of the rest of the western world does not share this view of unchecked speech.
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  Actually, I'm Australian (so, basically the British model but with more tolerance for swearing ;) ). I just admire the American concept of free speech more than I do ours.

"I'm glad to live in a country where I'm free to say anything, but hate speech is prosecuted." I'm going to be optimistic for the future of humanity, and assume that was a (masterful) troll.

saryant 11y ago

Throwaway with a blatant canard. I'm calling false flag.

DanBC 11y ago

That's a very common sentiment in eg England. Americans tend not to realise that their free speech laws are sometimes seen as extreme in Europe. It's not surprising they used a throwaway, they already got downvoted. (It wasn't me.)

soneil 11y ago
The Westboro Baptist Church make an easily graspable example of this. In the US the consensus (if any) seems to be "vile, but within their rights". But they're banned from entering the UK or Canada, because we draw that line differently.
- mike_hearn 11y ago
  More specifically, the government draws that line differently. And as civil liberties are basically never an election-defining issue, there is no pressure to change or improve things. Unfortunately this means the UK tends to be run for long periods by social conservatives, because that's the only way to get people who are also fiscal conservatives. I don't think you can draw deep conclusions about the value of free speech to people in Europe or the UK when it's so rarely debated. (British guy speaking here)
- duncan_bayne 11y ago
  Well yes, where 'differently' means 'hypocritically'. For example, you prevent anti-jihad activists like Robert Spencer from entering the UK to speak, but you're perfectly prepared to allow pro-jihad activists to live in the UK and preach hatred of Jews, women, and non-Muslims in general. This is the problem with limits on freedom of speech - they allow people doing the limiting to ban speech they don't like, for no other reason that they don't like it.
  - keedot 11y ago
    That's a problem with politicians. Don't confuse the two.
    - duncan_bayne 11y ago
      Sorry, I don't understand. It looks (to an outsider) like politicians are selectively enforcing nebulous 'hate speech' laws to silence people they don't like. How is that not a built-in feature of hate speech laws?
      - DanBC 11y ago
        I don't quite understand your complaint. You say the UK doesn't have freedom of speech; you demonstrate that by giving an example of people who do have freedom of speech; you then mention people who are banned from entering the UK, but those people are banned because there is a risk of violence; you then say that that rule is not applied to violent Islamists who live in the country. Of course it isn't! They live here, border controls are entirely the wrong tool to use for citizens. Those border controls are used to prevent many Islamists from coming to the country. And violent Islamists are dealt with using other laws. A better example of uneven freedom of speech laws might have been the protections that Jews and Christians had (under racial discrimination laws and blasphemy laws) that were not extended to Muslims.
        duncan_bayne 11y ago
        "but those people are banned because there is a risk of violence" No, they're banned because their speech is so unpopular amongst a small but violent group of the population, that the Govt. would rather they weren't allowed to speak there. That's a freedom of speech issue, not a border control issue. If the Govt. were functioning properly, it would uphold its duty to protect unpopular speech by preventing (or at least attempting to prevent) violence directed at them. Instead, they just close their doors.

soneil 11y ago

This dichotomy always exists. Very few rights are without their limits. Their front page already makes a perfect example of this: "Our manifesto is clear: we protect your right to privacy and freedom of speech". If a user wishes to 'doxx' me, my right to privacy and their freedom of speech are at odds. Which wins?

keedot 11y ago

It always surprises me when Americans think their concept of free speech is the only model. Much, if not most of the rest of the western world does not share this view of unchecked speech.

duncan_bayne 11y ago
Actually, I'm Australian (so, basically the British model but with more tolerance for swearing ;) ). I just admire the American concept of free speech more than I do ours.