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> I'd work my ass off without options, but the options really make it easy to say "I will do everything in my power to make this succeed" instead of "I'd rather

> I'd work my ass off without options, but the options really make it easy to say "I will do everything in my power to make this succeed" instead of "I'd rather go spend time with my friends tonight" Just curious: are you under 25? Not meant as ad hominem -- I know tons of engineers who have this attitude from 22-25, but the closer I get to 30 the more I realize on a deep level that I'm going to die someday and I have a finite amount of time to love others, watch sunsets, laugh, meet interesting people, etc. It's gotten to the point where I have trouble relating to newly-minted engineers because they seem stoked to work until 9 PM in exchange for Nerf guns and the illusory promise of a liquidity event.

sombremesa 11y ago
To work hard doesn't necessarily mean long hours.
- eastbayjake 11y ago
  Which is an excellent point that I deleted because it felt off-topic. I'm to the point where I want to work hard from 10-6 then go be a human, instead of working from 10-9 with lots of Nerf gun fights and Reddit breaks.
  - vlasev 11y ago
    Well, OP does talk about missing out on seeing his friends, so that would imply working long hours.
- nvader 11y ago
  You're absolutely right, and I'm not sure that the parent would disagree with you. However, the grandparent specifically formulated the choice as a dilemma: (I'd work my ass off without options, but the options really make it easy to say "I will do everything in my power to make this succeed" instead of "I'd rather go spend time with my friends tonight"), and that is probably what the parent was referring to.
- jmspring 11y ago
  This is a valid point, but go to almost any startup pitch event where potential talent is in the audience -- "Work hard, play hard" comes to mind. My favorite learning experience (from a startup perspective) is also the one I think was the biggest failure. So much tech and a lot of dedication on my part, but looking back, the lost time with my wife. All of it really due to a lack of planning and an over commitment by management expecting engineering to step up. I don't ever recall being asked for estimates, just what needed to be done. I was in my tunnel at the time, building things. I look back and the pre-devops, "devops" call at 1pm on a Saturday (after a 60+ hour week, they didn't have / hire sys admins before launching) was basically the end of line for me. Thankfully, the wife and I were driving back down 1 from SF to the Central Coast. We took our time and nourished the lack of coverage.
- JohnyLy 11y ago
  I totally agree. I don't like the term "working hard", it doesn't mean anything. I'd rather use "efficiency". If you work 70 hours but you do as much as someone working 20 hours, I don't consider that you are working hard. About the low wages for startup employees with high equity; I don't find it right as if you want to attract great workers, you need to offer them something now and not only something which might come possible in the future. Even if you have very high hopes to become a successful startup, this is never 100% sure. Startups have to look forward but people tend to look at present.
  - benjiweber 11y ago
    I'd rather use "effectiveness" than "efficiency". Doing in in 20hrs what takes someone else 70hrs is efficient, but it may not be effective. There's no point getting loads done if the work is low value. It's more important to focus on doing valuable work than getting lots done imo.
    - JohnyLy 11y ago
      I agree with effectiveness
jmspring 11y ago
Definitely not under 25. I've built startups for many people over the years (both as full time as a consultant/contractor), and at this point look at work on someone else's idea as dollars first, equity is gravy. Why? Early engineers take a hit on salary and any equity stake is quickly diluted. It is pretty common for engineers post series-A to potentially end up with a higher equity stake than someone that came in after seed funding when you factor in dilution. This is common. These days I look at startups as an opportunity to have a significant impact, build something interesting, but what am I giving up for the particular company? Can I gain the same benefits through other channels? I recall a YC event where companies were pitching looking for talent. At least the Justin.TV guy was honest and said "we work our asses off", the startup that pitched "we work together, we play together, and we hang out with our customers at 9pm trouble shooting" -- great if you just moved to the area and don't have other outlets. I've had some grate discussions with a few YC companies recruiting, some were wrong fit, some wrong match, some wrong time. In general, positive. But the original thread is right...for a lot of the talent some companies want, compensation needs to match the talent level desired and equity/option, that crap shoot needs revamping.
- eastbayjake 11y ago
  Forgive my assumption. So when you're referring to equity in a company, you're talking about a founder-sized chunk of the company and not the 0.1-0.5% pittance that an engineer hired under a technical co-founder would receive? If so, that makes total sense -- and I think in both cases, whether 0.5% or 20%, it's best to view equity as gravy -- but 0.5% of a pre-Series A company should not be a reason to work 70 hour weeks for 12-36 months.
  - Akkuma 11y ago
    I just had an offer that had, depending on chosen comp .1% to .17% equity with a 10k loss in salary all for an extra .07%. By the way, they have a lot of convertible notes and are pre-series A. I turned around with a counter offer/request that pointed out the equity is largely worthless with no anti-dilution provisions, while seemingly gearing up for a heavy dilution.
bpyne 11y ago
I was a little slow. It took me until 28 to have the epiphany. What finally brought me there was a diagnosis of hypertension and a realization that I hadn't dated in close to 6 years. Now I'm close to 48. Having more control over my time is worth more to me than the possibility of a big pay day.

sombremesa 11y ago

To work hard doesn't necessarily mean long hours.

eastbayjake 11y ago
Which is an excellent point that I deleted because it felt off-topic. I'm to the point where I want to work hard from 10-6 then go be a human, instead of working from 10-9 with lots of Nerf gun fights and Reddit breaks.
- vlasev 11y ago
  Well, OP does talk about missing out on seeing his friends, so that would imply working long hours.
nvader 11y ago
You're absolutely right, and I'm not sure that the parent would disagree with you. However, the grandparent specifically formulated the choice as a dilemma: (I'd work my ass off without options, but the options really make it easy to say "I will do everything in my power to make this succeed" instead of "I'd rather go spend time with my friends tonight"), and that is probably what the parent was referring to.
jmspring 11y ago
This is a valid point, but go to almost any startup pitch event where potential talent is in the audience -- "Work hard, play hard" comes to mind. My favorite learning experience (from a startup perspective) is also the one I think was the biggest failure. So much tech and a lot of dedication on my part, but looking back, the lost time with my wife. All of it really due to a lack of planning and an over commitment by management expecting engineering to step up. I don't ever recall being asked for estimates, just what needed to be done. I was in my tunnel at the time, building things. I look back and the pre-devops, "devops" call at 1pm on a Saturday (after a 60+ hour week, they didn't have / hire sys admins before launching) was basically the end of line for me. Thankfully, the wife and I were driving back down 1 from SF to the Central Coast. We took our time and nourished the lack of coverage.
JohnyLy 11y ago
I totally agree. I don't like the term "working hard", it doesn't mean anything. I'd rather use "efficiency". If you work 70 hours but you do as much as someone working 20 hours, I don't consider that you are working hard. About the low wages for startup employees with high equity; I don't find it right as if you want to attract great workers, you need to offer them something now and not only something which might come possible in the future. Even if you have very high hopes to become a successful startup, this is never 100% sure. Startups have to look forward but people tend to look at present.
- benjiweber 11y ago
  I'd rather use "effectiveness" than "efficiency". Doing in in 20hrs what takes someone else 70hrs is efficient, but it may not be effective. There's no point getting loads done if the work is low value. It's more important to focus on doing valuable work than getting lots done imo.
  - JohnyLy 11y ago
    I agree with effectiveness

jmspring 11y ago

Definitely not under 25. I've built startups for many people over the years (both as full time as a consultant/contractor), and at this point look at work on someone else's idea as dollars first, equity is gravy. Why? Early engineers take a hit on salary and any equity stake is quickly diluted. It is pretty common for engineers post series-A to potentially end up with a higher equity stake than someone that came in after seed funding when you factor in dilution. This is common. These days I look at startups as an opportunity to have a significant impact, build something interesting, but what am I giving up for the particular company? Can I gain the same benefits through other channels? I recall a YC event where companies were pitching looking for talent. At least the Justin.TV guy was honest and said "we work our asses off", the startup that pitched "we work together, we play together, and we hang out with our customers at 9pm trouble shooting" -- great if you just moved to the area and don't have other outlets. I've had some grate discussions with a few YC companies recruiting, some were wrong fit, some wrong match, some wrong time. In general, positive. But the original thread is right...for a lot of the talent some companies want, compensation needs to match the talent level desired and equity/option, that crap shoot needs revamping.

eastbayjake 11y ago
Forgive my assumption. So when you're referring to equity in a company, you're talking about a founder-sized chunk of the company and not the 0.1-0.5% pittance that an engineer hired under a technical co-founder would receive? If so, that makes total sense -- and I think in both cases, whether 0.5% or 20%, it's best to view equity as gravy -- but 0.5% of a pre-Series A company should not be a reason to work 70 hour weeks for 12-36 months.
- Akkuma 11y ago
  I just had an offer that had, depending on chosen comp .1% to .17% equity with a 10k loss in salary all for an extra .07%. By the way, they have a lot of convertible notes and are pre-series A. I turned around with a counter offer/request that pointed out the equity is largely worthless with no anti-dilution provisions, while seemingly gearing up for a heavy dilution.

bpyne 11y ago

I was a little slow. It took me until 28 to have the epiphany. What finally brought me there was a diagnosis of hypertension and a realization that I hadn't dated in close to 6 years. Now I'm close to 48. Having more control over my time is worth more to me than the possibility of a big pay day.