3 ms·

Jobstart works with job seekers to help them get hired, and gets paid when their recruiting clients hire their candidates. Sometimes Jobstart's candidates get j

by fecak 11y ago

Jobstart works with job seekers to help them get hired, and gets paid when their recruiting clients hire their candidates. Sometimes Jobstart's candidates get jobs at non-clients, and Jobstart doesn't get paid. Jobstart can help negotiate offers, for which they charge the candidate 20% of the difference between original and accepted offer. I'm an independent agency recruiter, and it sounds a lot like what I do. I don't charge candidates for negotiating services though. I agree that most recruiters aren't very good at what they are supposed to do. Positioning yourselves as coaches is a marketing strategy to differentiate from those recruiters, but what you are doing is basically the same thing as what a good (both skilled and 'benevolent') recruiter might do, no?

ztratar 11y ago
Hey there! Great questions. 1) All of our coaches are experienced engineers. 2) We're much more involved than recruiters. We're going to run you through in-house interview gauntlets if that's what you want and need (detailed feedback included). We'll rip apart your resume and start from scratch if that's a smart thing to do. I've found 0% of the recruiters I've talked to can do those things effectively -- perhaps you're different, but we've never met. :] 3) We help you network. 4) We'll actively help you look at companies outside our recruiting contract scope. We'll recommend companies that we don't work with. This is not a "sometimes candidates get jobs at non-clients" sort of thing. This is more of a "let's put you first, no matter what" sort of thing.
- fecak 11y ago
  Being experienced engineers is helpful. Whether or not you're "much more involved" than recruiters probably depends on the recruiter, but running multiple interviews internally with coaches is definitely a worthwhile service. Most experienced recruiters can rip apart a resume and are usually willing to help make changes (specifically when it's for their own client). I've seen recruiters that claim ownership of the resume they modify for their candidates, which seems tacky. I understand that you will recommend companies that you don't work with, although your business model has all the same incentives that the traditional contingency recruiting model has. You have two ways of making money. 1 - Getting paid when a candidate accepts a job at your client (standard contingency model). 2 - 20% (of difference) paid by candidate for negotiation You can recommend candidates to companies you don't work with, and you can make money off these deals by providing a negotiation service. I respect that you are trying to provide a superior service to what most recruiters are providing. It's a sad state for the recruiting industry when companies are reluctant to even use the term "recruiting". I'm as critical of the recruiting industry as anyone, so I do wish you well.
  - ztratar 11y ago
    Are you in SF? If so, we should grab coffee. Even if not, we should Skype. My email is zach@jobstart.co!
    - fecak 11y ago
      I emailed you a few hours ago. I'm in NY, but happy to share ideas.
- Peroni 11y ago
  1) That's neither a distinct nor a unique advantage. Being an engineer doesn't immediately qualify you as being better placed to advise someone on how to improve their career opportunities. 2) Recruiters won't rip apart a resume. They'll advise you on how to improve what you already have because they'll respect the time and effort you put into creating it in the first place. 3) Is this is short-hand for 'we'll tell you what meet-ups/events to go to'? 4) Again, neither a distinct nor a unique advantage. Recruiters constantly spec candidates out to companies they don't have contractual agreements with. It's how they win new business. I respect the fact that you're attempting to create a better experience for candidates but ultimately, what you have created is simply a traditional recruitment company that acts and behaves the way a recruitment company is meant to behave.
  - ztratar 11y ago
    Quality points, my responses: 1) You're right it doesn't immediately qualify you, but it does give you a better understanding as to what position requirements actually entail and what people mean when they say "I want to avoid all non-linux dev environments". We just use it as a base filter and then build coaches into the most qualified people over time. 2) Some people need light changes, some people need harsh truth. Recruiters ignore the latter and treat them as lost causes. I don't mean to say we'll disrespect people -- sorry if it came across that way! 3) We're building a network of helpful experts (see https://jobstart.co/experts https://jobstart.co/experts). We'll give people tips on how to explore their own network, connect with our experts, and do generic things such as attend meetups/events. Depends on the coach and the candidate. 4) Hmm, I'm trying to figure out how to explain this part properly and it's admittedly a bit difficult. Have you ever been sent a specced candidate by a company? What was that experience like -- good or bad? In our experience, it's almost always been bad. Usually it's so bad they don't even get the position requirement and candidate aligned properly, let alone send an outstanding candidate. I think some of this comes back to point #1, having the engineer-coach understand the specs, and letting the candidate themselves even do some initial contact. We don't run the entire job search for you -- we'll intro you to some companies, sure, but we're also going to teach you how to get better conversion % on your own efforts. "that acts and behaves the way a recruitment company is meant to behave". I disagree with everything in that sentence. Everything is temporary and no company or service is meant to act in any such way. Startups thrive only by finding creative ways of doing things.
- justonepost 11y ago
  I like it. I like that you do the 20% difference thing. I have never seen that before, and it's clever and aligned well with the goals of the developer. You're basically saying "if we can't get you at one of our customers, we'll find someone else and grind out a great offer for you." You get paid better if it's your own client, but if there is no fit, you at least still go to bat for your engineers. It's up to the developer to accept it, though, right? They can back out at any point, right?
  - ztratar 11y ago
    Yup -- always up to the developer. We don't create any contracts that binds them into anything. TBH, we can't take credit for the 20% thing. It's been done before (by itself).
- igravious 11y ago
  Location? SF only? California only? US only? Further afield?
rawnlq 11y ago
Random question: One thing recruiters are useful for is that usually have a list of interview questions their past candidates got from each company. But usually this list is not as comprehensive as even just careercup or glassdoor. But every company I have worked at had an internal wiki of interview questions and guidelines for evaluation. The number of questions is usually very small and study-able. With just the knowledge of my company's current wiki (and some past experience as the interviewer) I am pretty confident I can train even the weakest of candidates to pass the interview. Probably due to legal or ethical reasons though, I haven't seen anyone try to collect these database of questions from each company. Is it that risky to ask your candidates to leak them to you after they get hired?
- ztratar 11y ago
  This question is juicy. Assume you're asking him, so I'm gonna shy away here. ;)
  - rawnlq 11y ago
    How do you plan on helping candidates practice interview questions? Surely you have narrowed down the list of topics/questions somehow or else it won't be a very efficient use of time or of your service. The juicy part is just how you plan on procuring those questions. Careercup/glassdoor? Getting previous engineers who had access to those interview question wikis to be coaches? Surely the most effective way is to just get access to the actual list interview questions/grading rubric (at the past 3 companies I worked at they were accessible to any fulltime employee). Of course you shouldn't answer me if that's what you're actually doing since it's probably illegal. But if you have that kind of data I would use your company and recommend it to all my friends.
- fecak 11y ago
  I've been in agency recruiting for almost 20 years, and I've never told a candidate what question to expect. I might say there is a whiteboard exercise, or years ago mentioned if a client asked Fermi problems, but never a specific question. The biggest problem with contingency recruiting is when the recruiter feels that the size of the fee > the value of a recruiter's reputation. This issue caused me enough angst that I created my own business model that eliminates these incentives to cheat. I personally have never considered asking about the specific questions/answers for my clients' interviews. I may be in the minority on that.

by fecak 11y ago

ztratar 11y ago

Hey there! Great questions. 1) All of our coaches are experienced engineers. 2) We're much more involved than recruiters. We're going to run you through in-house interview gauntlets if that's what you want and need (detailed feedback included). We'll rip apart your resume and start from scratch if that's a smart thing to do. I've found 0% of the recruiters I've talked to can do those things effectively -- perhaps you're different, but we've never met. :] 3) We help you network. 4) We'll actively help you look at companies outside our recruiting contract scope. We'll recommend companies that we don't work with. This is not a "sometimes candidates get jobs at non-clients" sort of thing. This is more of a "let's put you first, no matter what" sort of thing.

fecak 11y ago
Being experienced engineers is helpful. Whether or not you're "much more involved" than recruiters probably depends on the recruiter, but running multiple interviews internally with coaches is definitely a worthwhile service. Most experienced recruiters can rip apart a resume and are usually willing to help make changes (specifically when it's for their own client). I've seen recruiters that claim ownership of the resume they modify for their candidates, which seems tacky. I understand that you will recommend companies that you don't work with, although your business model has all the same incentives that the traditional contingency recruiting model has. You have two ways of making money. 1 - Getting paid when a candidate accepts a job at your client (standard contingency model). 2 - 20% (of difference) paid by candidate for negotiation You can recommend candidates to companies you don't work with, and you can make money off these deals by providing a negotiation service. I respect that you are trying to provide a superior service to what most recruiters are providing. It's a sad state for the recruiting industry when companies are reluctant to even use the term "recruiting". I'm as critical of the recruiting industry as anyone, so I do wish you well.
- ztratar 11y ago
  Are you in SF? If so, we should grab coffee. Even if not, we should Skype. My email is zach@jobstart.co!
  - fecak 11y ago
    I emailed you a few hours ago. I'm in NY, but happy to share ideas.
Peroni 11y ago
1) That's neither a distinct nor a unique advantage. Being an engineer doesn't immediately qualify you as being better placed to advise someone on how to improve their career opportunities. 2) Recruiters won't rip apart a resume. They'll advise you on how to improve what you already have because they'll respect the time and effort you put into creating it in the first place. 3) Is this is short-hand for 'we'll tell you what meet-ups/events to go to'? 4) Again, neither a distinct nor a unique advantage. Recruiters constantly spec candidates out to companies they don't have contractual agreements with. It's how they win new business. I respect the fact that you're attempting to create a better experience for candidates but ultimately, what you have created is simply a traditional recruitment company that acts and behaves the way a recruitment company is meant to behave.
- ztratar 11y ago
  Quality points, my responses: 1) You're right it doesn't immediately qualify you, but it does give you a better understanding as to what position requirements actually entail and what people mean when they say "I want to avoid all non-linux dev environments". We just use it as a base filter and then build coaches into the most qualified people over time. 2) Some people need light changes, some people need harsh truth. Recruiters ignore the latter and treat them as lost causes. I don't mean to say we'll disrespect people -- sorry if it came across that way! 3) We're building a network of helpful experts (see https://jobstart.co/experts https://jobstart.co/experts). We'll give people tips on how to explore their own network, connect with our experts, and do generic things such as attend meetups/events. Depends on the coach and the candidate. 4) Hmm, I'm trying to figure out how to explain this part properly and it's admittedly a bit difficult. Have you ever been sent a specced candidate by a company? What was that experience like -- good or bad? In our experience, it's almost always been bad. Usually it's so bad they don't even get the position requirement and candidate aligned properly, let alone send an outstanding candidate. I think some of this comes back to point #1, having the engineer-coach understand the specs, and letting the candidate themselves even do some initial contact. We don't run the entire job search for you -- we'll intro you to some companies, sure, but we're also going to teach you how to get better conversion % on your own efforts. "that acts and behaves the way a recruitment company is meant to behave". I disagree with everything in that sentence. Everything is temporary and no company or service is meant to act in any such way. Startups thrive only by finding creative ways of doing things.
justonepost 11y ago
I like it. I like that you do the 20% difference thing. I have never seen that before, and it's clever and aligned well with the goals of the developer. You're basically saying "if we can't get you at one of our customers, we'll find someone else and grind out a great offer for you." You get paid better if it's your own client, but if there is no fit, you at least still go to bat for your engineers. It's up to the developer to accept it, though, right? They can back out at any point, right?
- ztratar 11y ago
  Yup -- always up to the developer. We don't create any contracts that binds them into anything. TBH, we can't take credit for the 20% thing. It's been done before (by itself).
igravious 11y ago
Location? SF only? California only? US only? Further afield?

rawnlq 11y ago

Random question: One thing recruiters are useful for is that usually have a list of interview questions their past candidates got from each company. But usually this list is not as comprehensive as even just careercup or glassdoor. But every company I have worked at had an internal wiki of interview questions and guidelines for evaluation. The number of questions is usually very small and study-able. With just the knowledge of my company's current wiki (and some past experience as the interviewer) I am pretty confident I can train even the weakest of candidates to pass the interview. Probably due to legal or ethical reasons though, I haven't seen anyone try to collect these database of questions from each company. Is it that risky to ask your candidates to leak them to you after they get hired?

ztratar 11y ago
This question is juicy. Assume you're asking him, so I'm gonna shy away here. ;)
- rawnlq 11y ago
  How do you plan on helping candidates practice interview questions? Surely you have narrowed down the list of topics/questions somehow or else it won't be a very efficient use of time or of your service. The juicy part is just how you plan on procuring those questions. Careercup/glassdoor? Getting previous engineers who had access to those interview question wikis to be coaches? Surely the most effective way is to just get access to the actual list interview questions/grading rubric (at the past 3 companies I worked at they were accessible to any fulltime employee). Of course you shouldn't answer me if that's what you're actually doing since it's probably illegal. But if you have that kind of data I would use your company and recommend it to all my friends.
fecak 11y ago
I've been in agency recruiting for almost 20 years, and I've never told a candidate what question to expect. I might say there is a whiteboard exercise, or years ago mentioned if a client asked Fermi problems, but never a specific question. The biggest problem with contingency recruiting is when the recruiter feels that the size of the fee > the value of a recruiter's reputation. This issue caused me enough angst that I created my own business model that eliminates these incentives to cheat. I personally have never considered asking about the specific questions/answers for my clients' interviews. I may be in the minority on that.