5 ms·

The Making Of: Dust

134 points by doppp 11y ago

Cyph0n 11y ago
A very interesting read. I was always interested in how popular maps are designed. I think their development is quite similar to that of open source projects.
anonova 11y ago
The passage from underpass to central hallway described in the rejected idea section is used in the CSGO map de_shortdust: https://youtu.be/rrXeowmXLMc?t=6m6s https://youtu.be/rrXeowmXLMc?t=6m6s Of course, the gameplay mode used with that map is different from one de_dust is designed for.
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  And it exists in the CS:GO version of de_dust as well, though it's on the 'off' side of underpass. You then have to cross the ledge above Underpass into the hallway.
Thriptic 11y ago
After blowing so much of my youth on dust and then dust2, this was a very cool read.
eterm 11y ago
I absolutely love dust but then he also made the sequel cobblestone which was one of the most frustrating maps ever created!
nothis 11y ago
This article (in older forms) has been floating around for a very, very long time on Dave Johnston's website. I remember it inspiring me to work harder on my own attempts at level design but also that there's a top tier skill (and level of commitment) that I eventually realized to never reach. It's mind-boggling to see how many considerations go into making a great (not good, great) map, even in much simpler times before true photorealism. Yet even then you can never predict how well it will work out in the end. It's a really interesting discipline between game design, architecture and understanding the technical details of the underlying engine.
- admyral 11y ago
  Exactly. It's amazing such a beloved and iconic example of game design art began as merely an attempt to recreate a screenshot. No lengthy design documents, no big ideas, no gray box test "notes", no countless iterations. Great things can seem to just come into existence.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Reading though that the difference between good and great is a lot of iterations and play testing.
- archagon 11y ago
  To be honest, I often feel like maps in competitive games become popular for seemingly no reason at all. As a long-time CS player, dust and dust2 have always felt rather stale to me. I've always found the dynamic, multi-level combat of maps like assault and office to be more fun. Fortunately, I've been hearing a lot more people piping up in favor of traditionally unbalanced maps like nuke these days! (What's annoying is when people try to attribute a map's popularity to its design. I've heard some people say that fy_iceworld is a brilliantly designed map. Seriously.)
  - acron0 11y ago
    Iceworld is brilliant design relative to what it set out to do - strip away the context and provide an arena to practice your aim. The only thing it doesn't do is provide elevation (other than if you or someone else jumps on a center wall, but that's asking for trouble), but other than that you've pretty much got everything else.
strictnein 11y ago
> "Rejected: a staircase joining the underpass to the central hallway." I always felt like there should have been a staircase there. I'll trust him that it didn't play as well, but it just seemed like there should have been another way out of the underpass.
- eertami 11y ago
  >it just seemed like there should have been another way out of the underpass In the CS:GO version of Dust there is actually a staircase leading out of underpass, though not directly into the central hallway.
  - NeutronBoy 11y ago
    IMO it makes the map a lot better - previously it was too hard to get out of Underpass and it was too far away from the rest of the map to be useful.
thatswrong0 11y ago
> I was still stuck. It’s at times like these where working without an initial design can prove extremely difficult. You look at what you’ve got, and struggle to see where to take it, knowing that each step in one direction is a step away from a solution in another direction - and you don’t know which way is going to turn out better. It can be tough knowing what to do next, and sometimes you question whether you should scrap everything and start again As someone who makes music for fun, this definitely resonates with me.
rangibaby 11y ago
It's amazing how popular dust then dust2 have remained throughout the lifetime of CS. The underpass being isolated from the rest of the map was a feature in my opinion because it gave noobs a space where they only had to worry about what was directly in front of them. It wasn't optimal gameplay but new players liked it. Dust2 pioneered what is basically the standard competitive layout - one bombsite with one entry for the Ts, one with two entrances (a short but dangerous way and a long but safe way) and a middle part that both sides fight for control of. Essentially every popular map since is a variation of this kind of layout.
barbs 11y ago
Fascinating read. Does anyone know how Dust II came about?
- sanjeetsuhag 11y ago
  You're in luck. There is a similar post about Dust2 : http://johnsto.co.uk/design/making-dust2 http://johnsto.co.uk/design/making-dust2
shiggerino 11y ago
>The underpass being isolated from the rest of the map was a feature in my opinion because it gave noobs a space where they only had to worry about what was directly in front of them. It wasn't optimal gameplay but new players liked it. I only played the game briefly and very unsuccessfully back in the day. Is this what they call camping? I never understood that concept, it seems like basic common sense for shooting others while not getting shot, both in real life and in the game.
- danneu 11y ago
  I believe it's just pointing out that, unlike other parts of the map, the underpass is a linear corridor where noobs don't have to worry about being flanked.
- rangibaby 11y ago
  Underpass with an AWP (a powerful sniper rifle) is one of CS's classic camping spots, so yes. People get mad about camping, because it's a passive, "cowardly" play style, or "cheap". I think calling someone a camper is just a way of trash talking and blaming them for your own loss. Kind of like the endless accusations of "hacking" (using cheat programs) or "smurfing" (a player playing with and dominating lesser skilled players just for fun). In games deathmatch or team deathmatch (Quake et al): • Hiding somewhere and trying to kill people as they run past (camping) • Staying near a powerful item waiting for it to respawn instead of actively chasing down your enemies. • Staying near player spawn points to kill them as soon as they come back to life. (spawn camping / killing). A lot of games give a short period of invulnerability after spawning (spawn protection) to prevent this. In Counter-Strike: • As the offensive team, staying at your base instead of attacking and trying to accomplish your objective (spawn camping). CS:GO gets around this by punishing the offensive team for letting the timer run out. • Not trying to help your team, and instead just hiding somewhere and trying to kill people as they come looking for you. It's dull watching someone in a 15 v 1 hiding in some ridiculous place while the timer runs down. However, this is an accepted tactic in a hopeless situation in competitive CS (saving), mainly because of the short timers and importance of economic management.

134 points by doppp 11y ago

A very interesting read. I was always interested in how popular maps are designed. I think their development is quite similar to that of open source projects.

anonova 11y ago

The passage from underpass to central hallway described in the rejected idea section is used in the CSGO map de_shortdust: https://youtu.be/rrXeowmXLMc?t=6m6s https://youtu.be/rrXeowmXLMc?t=6m6s Of course, the gameplay mode used with that map is different from one de_dust is designed for.

NeutronBoy 11y ago
And it exists in the CS:GO version of de_dust as well, though it's on the 'off' side of underpass. You then have to cross the ledge above Underpass into the hallway.

Thriptic 11y ago

After blowing so much of my youth on dust and then dust2, this was a very cool read.

eterm 11y ago

I absolutely love dust but then he also made the sequel cobblestone which was one of the most frustrating maps ever created!

nothis 11y ago

This article (in older forms) has been floating around for a very, very long time on Dave Johnston's website. I remember it inspiring me to work harder on my own attempts at level design but also that there's a top tier skill (and level of commitment) that I eventually realized to never reach. It's mind-boggling to see how many considerations go into making a great (not good, great) map, even in much simpler times before true photorealism. Yet even then you can never predict how well it will work out in the end. It's a really interesting discipline between game design, architecture and understanding the technical details of the underlying engine.

admyral 11y ago
Exactly. It's amazing such a beloved and iconic example of game design art began as merely an attempt to recreate a screenshot. No lengthy design documents, no big ideas, no gray box test "notes", no countless iterations. Great things can seem to just come into existence.
- Retric 11y ago
  Reading though that the difference between good and great is a lot of iterations and play testing.
archagon 11y ago
To be honest, I often feel like maps in competitive games become popular for seemingly no reason at all. As a long-time CS player, dust and dust2 have always felt rather stale to me. I've always found the dynamic, multi-level combat of maps like assault and office to be more fun. Fortunately, I've been hearing a lot more people piping up in favor of traditionally unbalanced maps like nuke these days! (What's annoying is when people try to attribute a map's popularity to its design. I've heard some people say that fy_iceworld is a brilliantly designed map. Seriously.)
- acron0 11y ago
  Iceworld is brilliant design relative to what it set out to do - strip away the context and provide an arena to practice your aim. The only thing it doesn't do is provide elevation (other than if you or someone else jumps on a center wall, but that's asking for trouble), but other than that you've pretty much got everything else.

strictnein 11y ago

> "Rejected: a staircase joining the underpass to the central hallway." I always felt like there should have been a staircase there. I'll trust him that it didn't play as well, but it just seemed like there should have been another way out of the underpass.

eertami 11y ago
>it just seemed like there should have been another way out of the underpass In the CS:GO version of Dust there is actually a staircase leading out of underpass, though not directly into the central hallway.
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  IMO it makes the map a lot better - previously it was too hard to get out of Underpass and it was too far away from the rest of the map to be useful.

thatswrong0 11y ago

> I was still stuck. It’s at times like these where working without an initial design can prove extremely difficult. You look at what you’ve got, and struggle to see where to take it, knowing that each step in one direction is a step away from a solution in another direction - and you don’t know which way is going to turn out better. It can be tough knowing what to do next, and sometimes you question whether you should scrap everything and start again As someone who makes music for fun, this definitely resonates with me.

rangibaby 11y ago

It's amazing how popular dust then dust2 have remained throughout the lifetime of CS. The underpass being isolated from the rest of the map was a feature in my opinion because it gave noobs a space where they only had to worry about what was directly in front of them. It wasn't optimal gameplay but new players liked it. Dust2 pioneered what is basically the standard competitive layout - one bombsite with one entry for the Ts, one with two entrances (a short but dangerous way and a long but safe way) and a middle part that both sides fight for control of. Essentially every popular map since is a variation of this kind of layout.

barbs 11y ago

Fascinating read. Does anyone know how Dust II came about?

sanjeetsuhag 11y ago
You're in luck. There is a similar post about Dust2 : http://johnsto.co.uk/design/making-dust2 http://johnsto.co.uk/design/making-dust2

shiggerino 11y ago

>The underpass being isolated from the rest of the map was a feature in my opinion because it gave noobs a space where they only had to worry about what was directly in front of them. It wasn't optimal gameplay but new players liked it. I only played the game briefly and very unsuccessfully back in the day. Is this what they call camping? I never understood that concept, it seems like basic common sense for shooting others while not getting shot, both in real life and in the game.

danneu 11y ago
I believe it's just pointing out that, unlike other parts of the map, the underpass is a linear corridor where noobs don't have to worry about being flanked.
rangibaby 11y ago
Underpass with an AWP (a powerful sniper rifle) is one of CS's classic camping spots, so yes. People get mad about camping, because it's a passive, "cowardly" play style, or "cheap". I think calling someone a camper is just a way of trash talking and blaming them for your own loss. Kind of like the endless accusations of "hacking" (using cheat programs) or "smurfing" (a player playing with and dominating lesser skilled players just for fun). In games deathmatch or team deathmatch (Quake et al): • Hiding somewhere and trying to kill people as they run past (camping) • Staying near a powerful item waiting for it to respawn instead of actively chasing down your enemies. • Staying near player spawn points to kill them as soon as they come back to life. (spawn camping / killing). A lot of games give a short period of invulnerability after spawning (spawn protection) to prevent this. In Counter-Strike: • As the offensive team, staying at your base instead of attacking and trying to accomplish your objective (spawn camping). CS:GO gets around this by punishing the offensive team for letting the timer run out. • Not trying to help your team, and instead just hiding somewhere and trying to kill people as they come looking for you. It's dull watching someone in a 15 v 1 hiding in some ridiculous place while the timer runs down. However, this is an accepted tactic in a hopeless situation in competitive CS (saving), mainly because of the short timers and importance of economic management.