5 ms·

A black man walks into Silicon Valley and tries to get a job

28 points by curiouscat321 11y ago

pkaye 11y ago
One thing in Silicon Valley is if you are not an engineer, business development, marketing or a few other support positions, it is very hard to find opportunities. The remaining positions just have lots of candidates competing for a few jobs. My wife had a hard time finding a business analyst position when she moved with me and has yet to find anything.
notduncansmith 11y ago
So, without any work samples from the author, it's impossible to say if it really was a "racial" thing, or he just wasn't very good at whatever position he was trying to get hired for. I've seen plenty of reports from people of all races being treated much the same way. I'm not saying the author wasn't discriminated against, merely that it's difficult to tell that he definitely was from an outside perspective.
WalterSear 11y ago
>They said I didn’t have enough experience — despite graduating with Honors from said college, being a member of the National Communication Honor Society, and holding a part-time job and internship for three of my four years in school. In this statement, you demonstrate such a poor understanding of what technology companies are hiring for, it's quite clear where the 'lack of fit' came from.
- ctvo 11y ago
  I think his point was he had enough qualifications and experience to match most recent out of college graduates. As for his qualities, he worked two jobs (part-time and internship) while attending school. I think hard work and determination are universally valued skills. I hate when these things get posted and it's a race to see who can tear down the author the fastest rather than addressing his very real point about the lack of diversity in the Valley.
  - notduncansmith 11y ago
    I would humbly submit it's possible to do both. While I don't believe at the present time (pending work samples to the contrary) that the author has a valid point about his experience being based largely on his race, I do believe that SV has both a diversity problem (that it will take quite a long time to solve) and an image problem (that will take even longer). It may not even necessarily be that people in the the Valley are "racist" - it may be that, being from a different racial background, he might not actually make a very good culture fit at some companies. He didn't mention which companies he applied for - if he applied at a bunch of <=10 person startups, his background may not fit the team as well as an autodidact-brogrammer.
    - Retra 11y ago
      "Culture fit" is the perfect mechanism for reducing diversity. In fact, that is entirely what it does. So it's a little disconcerting that you say SV has a diversity problem and then use culture fit as justification for a lack of diversity.
      - notduncansmith 11y ago
        > "Culture fit" is the perfect mechanism for reducing diversity I agree completely. The problem is manyfold. Firstly "culture fit" sounds like a really great thing that companies would want. It has positive connotations, and its usage affirms that a) your company has a "culture" in the first place (a difficult problem for many orgs), and b) that you're hiring people that are just right for maintaining that. Secondly, "culture" itself indicates homogeneity. Here's a fitting definition from Dictionary.app: > the attitudes and behavior characteristics of a particular social group "The attitudes and behavior characteristics" implies that there is one set of attitudes, one set of behaviors - which, unfortunately, is kind of the antithesis of "diversity". Another issue is that people who share these things that make up a culture tend to get along and collaborate more freely, on average, than those who don't. That's not to say that people with radically different cultures can't work well together, but it's far from the path of least resistance (which I'd argue is what businesses are after). The less time, and thus money, you have to spend on forcing your employees to collaborate, the better. This makes homogeneity very desirable in the eyes of management. It may be worthwhile to define a "company culture" along latitudes less tied to artifacts from other forms of culture - however, that sounds like an incredibly difficult task, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any company on Earth whose "company culture" doesn't reflect values from regional or religious cultures. Even if you did, then you'd still be gestating your own flavor of homogeneity inside that organization, by hiring exclusively for people who can get behind those values. I also think, personally, that "diversity" is only a goal worth pursuing when phrased as "diversity in ideas", which, when reduced the useful subset therein, can be more succinctly stated as "innovation"[1] - and I think we've seen multiple times, innovation produced from very homogenous groups (or individuals, to whom it's difficult to ascribe much diversity at the level of granularity to which most people refer).
orionblastar 11y ago
Breaking into Silicon Valley is really really hard. It is a totally different culture than the one he had in Ohio. You need more experience than just three to four years as an intern. In fact you have to work for the right type of company to be a good fit in Silicon Valley. You can't expect companies to just hand you a job because of your race or gender or whatever, you have to earn it. It means acing the interview including any whiteboard tests and stuff like that. It means impressing them with communication skills and showing them that you are a team player and a good fit with their company. You have to market and sell yourself. It is a lot of hard work and it still doesn't always pay off. Silicon Valley is more competitive. Salt Lake City is not as competitive. I'm sorry he didn't get a job in SV, but at least he found one in SLC.
paulhauggis 11y ago
"Or, get this — I was also told my experience made me overqualified for the position and they were afraid I’d get bored." This happened to me and most my friends. We are all different races. Were you applying for a low-level job (IE: trying to get anything)? You probably would have used it as a stepping-stone for a better job and the employer didn't want to spend resources training you. "The formula was largely the same. Most I didn’t hear back from at all. With a few, I had an in-person or Skype interview with the team." Once again, completely normal. "Yeah, a company in Utah is doing more for diversity than many in Silicon Valley — get over your biases of where you believe real change is championed." The truth is that you just don't have any real-world work experience. "One of the ways my company encourages diversity is by providing fair pay and benefits for all; which includes reimbursement for relocation, the opportunity to work remotely, a generous family leave policy, and flexible scheduling for personal needs" Now you are just sounding entitled. You aren't entitled to any of those things and there are plenty of people in Silicon Valley that are qualified and willing to take the job (which is why you had trouble). If you want to compete with them, you will need to move there. I know lots of different people that made the move and found jobs. You can too. This article has nothing to do with 'diversity' or 'race'. It's just plain silly.
- ohnomrbill 11y ago
  I reject the racial explanation too. I had the same problem as a white male. I went to a small private school in the Midwest; I had no full-time related work experience at the time (despite part-time jobs and internships throughout college); and I applied without an address in Silicon Valley. I sent out a hundred or so job apps, didn't hear back from most, got one or two flyouts. Eventually found a position outside of Silicon Valley. That said, this isn't intended to be mean. I'm not sure how people would judge my achievements if my skin color were different. I think it would be difficult to tell whether a perceived mistreatment is racially motivated, or just a normal occurrence given the circumstances.
- salmonellaeater 11y ago
  "Now you are just sounding entitled. You aren't entitled to any of those things and there are plenty of people in Silicon Valley that are qualified and willing to take the job (which is why you had trouble)." If the company truly values diversity, it will remove barriers that disproportionately affect minority groups. The author is just pointing out that a company cannot claim to value diversity while simultaneously making it nearly impossible for a minority to work there. This also applies to the perks that companies offer. Consider a free cafeteria. How could a parent possibly take advantage of free dinner at work? All of these policies and perks that are targeted at a specific demographic make the workforce less diverse. "If you want to compete with them, you will need to move there." I'd like to know how someone with no resources could just move to Silicon Valley as if they were walking across the street. Silicon Valley is expensive. Saving up for a ticket and a few months' rent in Silicon Valley would take years for many people. Companies that are insensitive to this fact will end up with a workforce disproportionately containing children of wealthy, connected people. The issues the author faces are mostly due to statistical discrimination of various forms[1]. In particular, information about candidates is expensive and employers don't want to make bad hires. A candidate who comes from a group that has more variance in ability or a lower average ability is more expensive to evaluate because the company needs more information about the individual to narrow their risk to an acceptable level. If the company is only willing to expend a certain amount of effort evaluating candidates, those without the information boost of coming from a well-known low-risk group will be rejected as too risky. Not that it's a company's moral duty to shoulder the costs of making hiring decisions solely on the basis of ability, but if a company claims to value diversity it is lying unless it shoulders at least some of those costs. [1] See "Theories of Statistical Discrimination and Affirmative Action: A Survey" section 2.2.1 at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~hfang/publication/moro/final.pdf http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~hfang/publication/moro/final.pdf
shadyshogun 11y ago
I understand exactly where he is coming from. At the end of the day, most people responsible for hiring go with "culture, values, and gut feelings." If they do not identify with you, your resume and experience does not matter one whit. Finally getting hired at a firm in Salt Lake City was supposed to happen; The more you go to bat, you will eventually get a hit. In other words, you got lucky at least once. Also, you "may" have tried at tto high a level(Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc.) only reserved for a few who "fit" the culture: Ivy League grads and/or those with better references and networks. And then Plan B was to get something "entry-level," which almost never works out. People in the majority community will never understand that black males many times are victims of lack benefit of the doubt in this country. Again, this falls under that "culture,value, and gut feeling" category. Almost every comment or reply is going to downplay your experience, equate it with theirs, claim you feel entitled, call you a whiner, without realizing they are not the "experiencer," the "knower within." I feel where you are coming from, but we must all start somewhere and you never gave up (at least on getting a job in Tech somewhere). Just realize that there are tens of thousands across demographic lines whose "Silicon Valley Dreams" were burned before they ever got started. I will end with this: Underrepresented communities must seek their "niche," or a form in which makes you stand out from the rest, makes you unique, and increases your intellectual value. Furthermore, start/begin/ create your own opportunities instead of waiting on someone to give it to you.
malandrew 11y ago
I have two questions: What types of positions were applied for? What did the applicant study? Were all the applications via resume submissions? The author may be completely right that the difficulties he had were due to race, but he also may be wrong. There simply isn't enough data to figure out from the blog post. I'm a white male that graduated with similar credentials and when I applied to 50 management consulting after college I had a very similar experience: courtesy rejection letters if I was lucky, but most of the time not even that. In hindsight, now that I've been on the other side of the table and I've learned a lot about how effective hiring is done, I went about it all wrong at the time. My current self would give my past self the exact same treatment I received. give my I had few references and connections to the industry. Most of my applications were letters/emails with a cover letter and résumé. Later on I discovered that such a tactic fills less than 10% of jobs out there and there direct referrals is one of the best ways. I was naive and inexperienced and went about it all wrong. Applying from a distance is also a huge strike against you [0]. Only senior people with lots of experience get to apply from a distance. For everyone else, you basically need to move to where you want to be and apply as a local hire. [0] http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/05/28/you-cant-look-for-a-job-from-a-remote-location-it-doesnt-work/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/05/28/you-cant-look-...
- notduncansmith 11y ago
  For the record, while I am a senior developer, I only have ~3 years of experience and had no problem finding a position in SF with full relocation from Alabama (shameless plug, we're still hiring). My point being, don't count yourself out just because you live across the country. Also, I went through Hired.com and it was a really great experience overall (I'd say the same even if I hadn't been placed, they have a truly top-notch platform there). Recommended especially for devs looking to apply in major cities that they may not live in.
dczx 11y ago
Everyone already stated what I was going to say more thorougly. Ohio Private School != Silicon Valley
jtmcmc 11y ago
I don't doubt that there are a number of challenges to getting a job in silicon valley - some of these may be racial bias in some cases. However this blog post doesn't really demonstrate anything.
davidf18 11y ago
> "Hiring managers didn’t like me because I went to a small private university in Ohio." He is complaining because he didn't have enough money to live in SV while looking for a job, complaining that he is not paid for relocation costs, but somehow he had enough money to go to a private college instead of big public university that has lots of computing resources. Marc Andreessen went to the U. of Illinois. So did Larry Ellison. So did several founders of Paypal. So did I. Marc programmed the Mosaic browser while he was in college. I paid for college programming the university's supercomputers. I don't understand why someone would attend a small private university not known for computing when there are far superior public universities if they want to work in SV. Also, I don't know of anyone from college who was worried about relocation costs since they really owned nothing but some books, clothes, etc.
jasonj79 11y ago
Sounds like sour grapes, not discrimination... I moved coast to coast to work for a SV technology company (fully paid), did NOT graduate from a fancy college (or any for that matter), have my nights and weekends free, and see the struggle daily that is the fight to find qualified talent... Truth is that tech companies are having an extremely hard time filling seats, and they frankly can't afford to discriminate on anything other than lack of skill necessary or extreme culture mismatch. The only thing I agree with in this article is that yes, 3 times is a pattern... a pattern that they don't want to hire him. Maybe he should figure out why that is before blindly blaming it on race.

28 points by curiouscat321 11y ago

pkaye 11y ago

One thing in Silicon Valley is if you are not an engineer, business development, marketing or a few other support positions, it is very hard to find opportunities. The remaining positions just have lots of candidates competing for a few jobs. My wife had a hard time finding a business analyst position when she moved with me and has yet to find anything.

notduncansmith 11y ago

So, without any work samples from the author, it's impossible to say if it really was a "racial" thing, or he just wasn't very good at whatever position he was trying to get hired for. I've seen plenty of reports from people of all races being treated much the same way. I'm not saying the author wasn't discriminated against, merely that it's difficult to tell that he definitely was from an outside perspective.

WalterSear 11y ago

>They said I didn’t have enough experience — despite graduating with Honors from said college, being a member of the National Communication Honor Society, and holding a part-time job and internship for three of my four years in school. In this statement, you demonstrate such a poor understanding of what technology companies are hiring for, it's quite clear where the 'lack of fit' came from.

ctvo 11y ago
I think his point was he had enough qualifications and experience to match most recent out of college graduates. As for his qualities, he worked two jobs (part-time and internship) while attending school. I think hard work and determination are universally valued skills. I hate when these things get posted and it's a race to see who can tear down the author the fastest rather than addressing his very real point about the lack of diversity in the Valley.
- notduncansmith 11y ago
  I would humbly submit it's possible to do both. While I don't believe at the present time (pending work samples to the contrary) that the author has a valid point about his experience being based largely on his race, I do believe that SV has both a diversity problem (that it will take quite a long time to solve) and an image problem (that will take even longer). It may not even necessarily be that people in the the Valley are "racist" - it may be that, being from a different racial background, he might not actually make a very good culture fit at some companies. He didn't mention which companies he applied for - if he applied at a bunch of <=10 person startups, his background may not fit the team as well as an autodidact-brogrammer.
  - Retra 11y ago
    "Culture fit" is the perfect mechanism for reducing diversity. In fact, that is entirely what it does. So it's a little disconcerting that you say SV has a diversity problem and then use culture fit as justification for a lack of diversity.
    - notduncansmith 11y ago
      > "Culture fit" is the perfect mechanism for reducing diversity I agree completely. The problem is manyfold. Firstly "culture fit" sounds like a really great thing that companies would want. It has positive connotations, and its usage affirms that a) your company has a "culture" in the first place (a difficult problem for many orgs), and b) that you're hiring people that are just right for maintaining that. Secondly, "culture" itself indicates homogeneity. Here's a fitting definition from Dictionary.app: > the attitudes and behavior characteristics of a particular social group "The attitudes and behavior characteristics" implies that there is one set of attitudes, one set of behaviors - which, unfortunately, is kind of the antithesis of "diversity". Another issue is that people who share these things that make up a culture tend to get along and collaborate more freely, on average, than those who don't. That's not to say that people with radically different cultures can't work well together, but it's far from the path of least resistance (which I'd argue is what businesses are after). The less time, and thus money, you have to spend on forcing your employees to collaborate, the better. This makes homogeneity very desirable in the eyes of management. It may be worthwhile to define a "company culture" along latitudes less tied to artifacts from other forms of culture - however, that sounds like an incredibly difficult task, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any company on Earth whose "company culture" doesn't reflect values from regional or religious cultures. Even if you did, then you'd still be gestating your own flavor of homogeneity inside that organization, by hiring exclusively for people who can get behind those values. I also think, personally, that "diversity" is only a goal worth pursuing when phrased as "diversity in ideas", which, when reduced the useful subset therein, can be more succinctly stated as "innovation"[1] - and I think we've seen multiple times, innovation produced from very homogenous groups (or individuals, to whom it's difficult to ascribe much diversity at the level of granularity to which most people refer).

orionblastar 11y ago

Breaking into Silicon Valley is really really hard. It is a totally different culture than the one he had in Ohio. You need more experience than just three to four years as an intern. In fact you have to work for the right type of company to be a good fit in Silicon Valley. You can't expect companies to just hand you a job because of your race or gender or whatever, you have to earn it. It means acing the interview including any whiteboard tests and stuff like that. It means impressing them with communication skills and showing them that you are a team player and a good fit with their company. You have to market and sell yourself. It is a lot of hard work and it still doesn't always pay off. Silicon Valley is more competitive. Salt Lake City is not as competitive. I'm sorry he didn't get a job in SV, but at least he found one in SLC.

paulhauggis 11y ago

"Or, get this — I was also told my experience made me overqualified for the position and they were afraid I’d get bored." This happened to me and most my friends. We are all different races. Were you applying for a low-level job (IE: trying to get anything)? You probably would have used it as a stepping-stone for a better job and the employer didn't want to spend resources training you. "The formula was largely the same. Most I didn’t hear back from at all. With a few, I had an in-person or Skype interview with the team." Once again, completely normal. "Yeah, a company in Utah is doing more for diversity than many in Silicon Valley — get over your biases of where you believe real change is championed." The truth is that you just don't have any real-world work experience. "One of the ways my company encourages diversity is by providing fair pay and benefits for all; which includes reimbursement for relocation, the opportunity to work remotely, a generous family leave policy, and flexible scheduling for personal needs" Now you are just sounding entitled. You aren't entitled to any of those things and there are plenty of people in Silicon Valley that are qualified and willing to take the job (which is why you had trouble). If you want to compete with them, you will need to move there. I know lots of different people that made the move and found jobs. You can too. This article has nothing to do with 'diversity' or 'race'. It's just plain silly.

ohnomrbill 11y ago
I reject the racial explanation too. I had the same problem as a white male. I went to a small private school in the Midwest; I had no full-time related work experience at the time (despite part-time jobs and internships throughout college); and I applied without an address in Silicon Valley. I sent out a hundred or so job apps, didn't hear back from most, got one or two flyouts. Eventually found a position outside of Silicon Valley. That said, this isn't intended to be mean. I'm not sure how people would judge my achievements if my skin color were different. I think it would be difficult to tell whether a perceived mistreatment is racially motivated, or just a normal occurrence given the circumstances.
salmonellaeater 11y ago
"Now you are just sounding entitled. You aren't entitled to any of those things and there are plenty of people in Silicon Valley that are qualified and willing to take the job (which is why you had trouble)." If the company truly values diversity, it will remove barriers that disproportionately affect minority groups. The author is just pointing out that a company cannot claim to value diversity while simultaneously making it nearly impossible for a minority to work there. This also applies to the perks that companies offer. Consider a free cafeteria. How could a parent possibly take advantage of free dinner at work? All of these policies and perks that are targeted at a specific demographic make the workforce less diverse. "If you want to compete with them, you will need to move there." I'd like to know how someone with no resources could just move to Silicon Valley as if they were walking across the street. Silicon Valley is expensive. Saving up for a ticket and a few months' rent in Silicon Valley would take years for many people. Companies that are insensitive to this fact will end up with a workforce disproportionately containing children of wealthy, connected people. The issues the author faces are mostly due to statistical discrimination of various forms[1]. In particular, information about candidates is expensive and employers don't want to make bad hires. A candidate who comes from a group that has more variance in ability or a lower average ability is more expensive to evaluate because the company needs more information about the individual to narrow their risk to an acceptable level. If the company is only willing to expend a certain amount of effort evaluating candidates, those without the information boost of coming from a well-known low-risk group will be rejected as too risky. Not that it's a company's moral duty to shoulder the costs of making hiring decisions solely on the basis of ability, but if a company claims to value diversity it is lying unless it shoulders at least some of those costs. [1] See "Theories of Statistical Discrimination and Affirmative Action: A Survey" section 2.2.1 at http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~hfang/publication/moro/final.pdf http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~hfang/publication/moro/final.pdf

shadyshogun 11y ago

I understand exactly where he is coming from. At the end of the day, most people responsible for hiring go with "culture, values, and gut feelings." If they do not identify with you, your resume and experience does not matter one whit. Finally getting hired at a firm in Salt Lake City was supposed to happen; The more you go to bat, you will eventually get a hit. In other words, you got lucky at least once. Also, you "may" have tried at tto high a level(Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc.) only reserved for a few who "fit" the culture: Ivy League grads and/or those with better references and networks. And then Plan B was to get something "entry-level," which almost never works out. People in the majority community will never understand that black males many times are victims of lack benefit of the doubt in this country. Again, this falls under that "culture,value, and gut feeling" category. Almost every comment or reply is going to downplay your experience, equate it with theirs, claim you feel entitled, call you a whiner, without realizing they are not the "experiencer," the "knower within." I feel where you are coming from, but we must all start somewhere and you never gave up (at least on getting a job in Tech somewhere). Just realize that there are tens of thousands across demographic lines whose "Silicon Valley Dreams" were burned before they ever got started. I will end with this: Underrepresented communities must seek their "niche," or a form in which makes you stand out from the rest, makes you unique, and increases your intellectual value. Furthermore, start/begin/ create your own opportunities instead of waiting on someone to give it to you.

malandrew 11y ago

I have two questions: What types of positions were applied for? What did the applicant study? Were all the applications via resume submissions? The author may be completely right that the difficulties he had were due to race, but he also may be wrong. There simply isn't enough data to figure out from the blog post. I'm a white male that graduated with similar credentials and when I applied to 50 management consulting after college I had a very similar experience: courtesy rejection letters if I was lucky, but most of the time not even that. In hindsight, now that I've been on the other side of the table and I've learned a lot about how effective hiring is done, I went about it all wrong at the time. My current self would give my past self the exact same treatment I received. give my I had few references and connections to the industry. Most of my applications were letters/emails with a cover letter and résumé. Later on I discovered that such a tactic fills less than 10% of jobs out there and there direct referrals is one of the best ways. I was naive and inexperienced and went about it all wrong. Applying from a distance is also a huge strike against you [0]. Only senior people with lots of experience get to apply from a distance. For everyone else, you basically need to move to where you want to be and apply as a local hire. [0] http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/05/28/you-cant-look-for-a-job-from-a-remote-location-it-doesnt-work/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/05/28/you-cant-look-...

notduncansmith 11y ago
For the record, while I am a senior developer, I only have ~3 years of experience and had no problem finding a position in SF with full relocation from Alabama (shameless plug, we're still hiring). My point being, don't count yourself out just because you live across the country. Also, I went through Hired.com and it was a really great experience overall (I'd say the same even if I hadn't been placed, they have a truly top-notch platform there). Recommended especially for devs looking to apply in major cities that they may not live in.

dczx 11y ago

Everyone already stated what I was going to say more thorougly. Ohio Private School != Silicon Valley

jtmcmc 11y ago

I don't doubt that there are a number of challenges to getting a job in silicon valley - some of these may be racial bias in some cases. However this blog post doesn't really demonstrate anything.

davidf18 11y ago

> "Hiring managers didn’t like me because I went to a small private university in Ohio." He is complaining because he didn't have enough money to live in SV while looking for a job, complaining that he is not paid for relocation costs, but somehow he had enough money to go to a private college instead of big public university that has lots of computing resources. Marc Andreessen went to the U. of Illinois. So did Larry Ellison. So did several founders of Paypal. So did I. Marc programmed the Mosaic browser while he was in college. I paid for college programming the university's supercomputers. I don't understand why someone would attend a small private university not known for computing when there are far superior public universities if they want to work in SV. Also, I don't know of anyone from college who was worried about relocation costs since they really owned nothing but some books, clothes, etc.

jasonj79 11y ago

Sounds like sour grapes, not discrimination... I moved coast to coast to work for a SV technology company (fully paid), did NOT graduate from a fancy college (or any for that matter), have my nights and weekends free, and see the struggle daily that is the fight to find qualified talent... Truth is that tech companies are having an extremely hard time filling seats, and they frankly can't afford to discriminate on anything other than lack of skill necessary or extreme culture mismatch. The only thing I agree with in this article is that yes, 3 times is a pattern... a pattern that they don't want to hire him. Maybe he should figure out why that is before blindly blaming it on race.